The Retribution Concordance - 4.3, Voice of the DPS - Page 91

Siral · 08/27/11, 3:57 AM

With apparatus inflection point for haste is 1437. At this rating activating Apparatus with 5% spell haste buff and 9% from Judgement you reach 3 sec CD on crusader strike.
At this point we got 2 problems with this "setup":
1) Priority system is different: we have more AoW procs than before, so we could have a different priority.
2) with 3 sec on crusader strike, using AW together with Zealotry is a waste (or at least is what I've noticed). Now I use Goak when I get 3 Titanic Power Stack, use apparatus and zealotry when reach 5 stack (and this give the tank a lot of time to build aggro, even if with recent hotfixes threat is not a problem anymore). After this I use Avenging Wrath.

Malleus · 08/27/11, 5:25 AM

Originally Posted by Siral

With apparatus inflection point for haste is 1437. At this rating activating Apparatus with 5% spell haste buff and 9% from Judgement you reach 3 sec CD on crusader strike.
At this point we got 2 problems with this "setup":

No, you have one big problem: Apparatus won't proc for haste unless you have both crit and mastery ratings lower than it. Swapping mastery for haste to that degree is a loss of DPS.

Pliers · 08/27/11, 6:51 PM

I was playing around on the dummies last night. In a large sample, exorcism was not doubling damage with AoW over base cast. It was a little under 1.9x. If there is an error, it could screw up with how some sims calculate its damage.

sjogren · 08/28/11, 2:08 AM

AoW is additive with Blazing Light. A proc makes Exo damage go from 1.2*base to 2.2*base. 2.2 / 1.2 = 1.83~ which is probably what you saw.

Exemplar · 08/29/11, 9:15 AM

Originally Posted by Medieve

I'm getting at 3.75 CD CS or better, haste being my strongest stat.

Stats are not stand alone - they interact and synergize. With that much Haste if you have pathetic Mastery you will find that Mastery is your stronger stat. Only if Mastery is already sufficiently strong would Haste possibly be a better option. Even then, add enough more Haste and you will again find some other stat pulls ahead.

3.75 isn't a magic number, it just happens to be the number for your individual set of Mastery and Crit rating. There is no magic number. There's not even a hard ratio, I just found a general range which is easy to eyeball.

Lots of Haste: more CS and TV (amongst other things), which increases the value of Mastery and Crit to hit harder.
Lots of Mastery: each CS and TV hits hard (HoL), which increases the value of Haste to hit more often, or Crit to double more attacks.
Lots of Crit: each attack (on average) hits harder, which increases the value of Mastery (more doubled CS/TV which effectively double HoL), or Haste to have more of those harder hits.

The more you gain of any stat, the better the other stats become. Stat increases may be linear, but you can impact the slope of any given stat's increase by increasing the other stats.

Medieve · 08/30/11, 4:38 PM

Exemplar;

That's what I originally thought as well. I've been playing around with it more and more, and prioritizing Exo ahead of TV seems to net me, on average over the course of a 5 min fight, 12 Exo's for a loss of 3 TV's. With them hititng so closely in damage, and taking advantage of as many AoW proc's as possible at the expense of a TV here and there brings mastery down and haste up. Which is how they ended up even, at around the 3.75 CS mark (1438 haste). As I went and increased the gear for future upgrades, the pattern stayed true, mastery and haste being equal, and crit about half as either. Which makes sense in my mind, as you increase the amount of crit you have, the values of haste and mastery, being bread and butter for your damage rate, would also increase at about the same rate, keeping the relative values even.

But there's so much RNG in the ret paladin spec that I'm not entirely sure if it's completely accurate. It seems, based on number crunching alone, to be a slight increase over the mastery build, but I'm having trouble getting enough real-world data back. From the limited personal data I have, it's an increase, however slight, but it's hardly enough to be conclusive. Maybe I'm right, or maybe I'm missing something, either is likely.

Alensia · 08/31/11, 8:50 PM

I've been going over and over this but can't come up with a definitive answer; which should I go spend my DKP on, [Sulfuras, The Extinguished Hand] or [Skullstealer Greataxe] as Human? Spreadsheets, simcrafts, Rawr etc. seem to provide a bit different results. Gut feeling says the Skullstealer, but..

Amberion · 09/01/11, 7:57 PM

Originally Posted by Alensia

I've been going over and over this but can't come up with a definitive answer; which should I go spend my DKP on, [Sulfuras, The Extinguished Hand] or [Skullstealer Greataxe] as Human? Spreadsheets, simcrafts, Rawr etc. seem to provide a bit different results. Gut feeling says the Skullstealer, but..

The heroic axe off shannox is better than the normal mode mace off of ragnaros.

Edit: On second glance it's not so clear cut since the mace has those sockets and crit instead of haste. Personally, I'd rather have the mace, but they're really close.

sjogren · 09/02/11, 4:04 AM

They're fairly equivalent, not so much because of the sockets but because Sulfuras is slower. Templar's Verdict isn't normalized to 3.3 so weapon speed has a huge impact, sadly enough.

saboya · 09/02/11, 7:31 AM

Originally Posted by sjogren

They're fairly equivalent, not so much because of the sockets but because Sulfuras is slower. Templar's Verdict isn't normalized to 3.3 so weapon speed has a huge impact, sadly enough.

Top DMG on 391 weapon is still higher.

gcbirzan · 09/02/11, 7:40 AM

I was playing with Exemplar's spreadsheet, in my really crap gear, and aside noticing myself that the reforge option sometimes nets me worse dps, I wanted to mention that, at least for me and the profile the spreadsheet comes with, switching to SoR is better at 3 targets, not 4 as stated in the first post. (note: I mean 2 extra targets in the spreadsheet, so I wasn't being that stupid.)

sjogren · 09/02/11, 8:57 AM

Originally Posted by saboya

Top DMG on 391 weapon is still higher.

And your point is what, exactly? The impact of normalization is the contribution from attack power.
Normalized attack => You get 3.3*AP/14
Un-normalized attack => You get WSPEED*AP/14

Now, I haven't simmed the weapons against each other which is why I said "fairly equal" rather than claiming one is better than the other, but believing that the axe is better just because it's higher dps or higher max damage is rather naive when weapon speed does have a big impact on TV damage.

RebornTN · 09/02/11, 10:50 AM

Doing basic math using the formulas found in exemplar's spreadsheet the damage difference is low with our current APif I remember right. All numbers below are Using ~17000AP, difference of Str on the Weapons, ~378 ilvl gearset with full buffs.

Taken from Exemplars spreadsheet in same gear aside from weapon obviously. All damage is Normal, no crits and before debuffs I believe.

White:
N Sulfuras:     7619.46 @ 3.8 swing Speed before Haste
H Skullstealer: 7387.27 @ 3.6 Swing Speed before Haste

CS:            ((C6 * Weaponspeed) + ((CharTotalAP / 14) * 3.3)) * 135%
N Sulfuras:    ((786.8 * 3.8) + ((17057 / 14) * 3.3)) * 135% = (2989.84 + 4020.579) * 135% = 9464.066
H Skullstealer:((839.9 * 3.6) + ((16970 / 14) * 3.3)) * 135% = (3023.64 + 4000.071) * 135% = 9482.010

TV:            ((C6 * Weaponspeed) + ((CharTotalAP / 14) * Weaponspeed)) * 235%
N Sulfuras:    ((786.8 * 3.8) + ((17057 / 14) * 3.8)) * 235% = (2989.84 + 4629.757) * 235% = 17905.348
H Skullstealer:((839.9 * 3.6) + ((16970 / 14) * 3.6)) * 235% =  (3023.64 + 4363.715) * 235% = 17360.282

SoT:           0.15*Wdmg
N Sulfuras:    1142.92
H Skullstealer:1108.09

SoC Talent:    IF(SoCTalent=1,(7% * WeaponDamage),0)
N Sulfuras:    533.36
H Skullstealer:517.11

Sulfuras does seem to pull ahead on almost everything. I Honestly do not notice a difference with either and possibly RNG has favored me but I've seen higher DPS with my Skullstealer since swapping two weeks ago, though I will have to test numbers on Sulfuras since I recieved a few upgrades.

Below in Spoiler tag is my personal numbers taken from Exemplars sheet comparing the two weapons with same gear.

← Click Here

25,000 iterations for a 450 Second Patchwork fight on Simcraft show less than 500 DPS variance (30,0002 w/ Normal Sulfuras and 30,460 w/ Heroic Skullstealer) using myself. Exemplar's Spreadsheet also shows heroic Skullstealer as being higher DPS.

Pliers · 09/02/11, 2:07 PM

Sulfuras does seem to pull ahead on almost everything.

You didn't factor for the swing speed past using it to determine the hit damage. White dps is lower with Sulfuras, even if it hits for more damage. Showing larger numbers doesn't give the right information to compare them. The issue is whether the extra auto-swing damage (white hits and the SoC/SoT/AoW procs that go along with it) from Skullstealer can beat out the massive TVs and slightly higher SoT/SoC dmg on specials.

The difference in TV damage should be close to offset by the AoW proc-rate. Skullstealer will do more white damage (as well as white-hit-procced SoT/SoCs), but will do less SoC/SoT damage on specials. It's all very close, and is exactly why people keep asking. Any eyeball comparison will fail. Only sims will give an answer.

RebornTN · 09/02/11, 2:41 PM

Originally Posted by Pliers

You didn't factor for the swing speed past using it to determine the hit damage. White dps is lower with Sulfuras, even if it hits for more damage. Showing larger numbers doesn't give the right information to compare them. The issue is whether the extra auto-swing damage (white hits and the SoC/SoT/AoW procs that go along with it) from Skullstealer can beat out the massive TVs and slightly higher SoT/SoC dmg on specials.

The difference in TV damage should be close to offset by the AoW proc-rate. Skullstealer will do more white damage (as well as white-hit-procced SoT/SoCs), but will do less SoC/SoT damage on specials. It's all very close, and is exactly why people keep asking. Any eyeball comparison will fail. Only sims will give an answer.

The only thing that swing speed would affect that wasn't accounted for number wise that I posted is how often you get the White damage and a Few more SoT/SoC procs which would more than likely normalize the difference in harder hitting attacks. I only pulled the Damage numbers from Exemplar's sheet as a comparison of Damage, so that I will fix but the rest remains the same.

I did assume that most people would realize the difference as the debate looks like its Slower Swing Speed + Lower Weapon Damage vs Faster Swing Speed + More Weapon Damage.

Checking Simcraft/Spreadsheet to try and get a variance of how many more White/SoT/SoC hits compared on the same fight length

Update: This is done using my Current Gear - Simcraft and Spreadsheet Damage Breakdown Comparison
Both show Sulfuras as hitting harder, but as Lower DPS for my gear.