The Retribution Concordance - 4.3, Voice of the DPS - Page 95

• malthrin · 09/13/11, 1:15 AM

Originally Posted by Babathong

Our class is way to RNG dependent and the top rankings really don't tell the full story about how the cd usage is working at the beginning of the fight.

Yep. That was a dumb tangent - let's not do it again.

Jonuts · 09/13/11, 3:02 AM

Each fight should be assessed for its own merits. The OP is simply covering if there are multiple targets, all are equally important to kill, and will take more than 1-2 GCD to do so. Knowing a rough breakpoint can be very useful when considering a specific fight in advance.

Well, you basically articulated my point for me. As for a rough breakpoint, it would likely be far too much of a PitA to write up and use a set of rules, and just go with what works on a specific encounter. Seriously, if you are paying attention, you have a clear cut best choice with current raid mechanics. Any accurate assessment for a set of rules on when to use which for what situation would just end up a massive list of rules and exceptions more complicated than anything else for our class. I know of no fights with adds that live long enough to justify using SoT over SoR for better damage. Maybe adds life is so short you feel it's not worth switching, and that's alright.

Frankly though, adds just don't live long enough for multi-dotting with SoT to be a DPS boost over SoR. Especially in, as he originally asked, groups of 4 or 5 adds. Rule of thumb though: Do adds have to die and aren't going to live for a long time? SoR. Ignore adds? SoT. Multiple targets that have to die but are going to live a long freakin time? Multi-dot if you can. Assuming you can keep a 5 stack up on all targets, then OVER TIME, SoT will prove superior. Only thing that comes to mind is a fight like Illidari council, where you fight multiple bosses at once. Adds with a healthpool large enough to justify Multi-dotting over SoR generally don't have to die in the first place, so any time spent hitting them is time not spent hitting what matters.

Exemplar · 09/13/11, 9:09 AM

For reference:
I have tested Censure and coefficients work out to a precise 40% increase (sometimes Blizzard is less than exact in what it communicates). Coefficients listed in the OP have been updated with the new information.

And since I didn't see any other comment regarding the sanity of the following quote:

We're also considering shifting some of the damage from Hammer of Wrath into other attacks. While that may not necessarily cure some of the current concerns about proc reliance, it should help smooth out damage a bit.

HoW is not a proc, shifting damage away from it would not cure any concerns of proc reliance. In fact, two possibilities would increase proc reliance - moving some of its damage to either TV (DivPurp) or Exo (AoW). HoW reduction would impact PvP (less burst), but not reduce proc reliance. Offboarding damage to anything other than TV or Exo would maintain DPS parity and... not impact proc reliance since our procs would not be weaker in any fashion.

As nothing has happened there are no details to discuss and there is no intention to armchair quarterback Blizzard, I simply wanted the (in)sanity of the comment to be noted.

beingmused · 09/13/11, 9:14 AM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

For reference:
HoW is not a proc, shifting damage away from it would not cure any concerns of proc reliance. In fact, two possibilities would increase proc reliance - moving some of its damage to either TV (DivPurp) or Exo (AoW). HoW reduction would impact PvP (less burst), but not reduce proc reliance. Offboarding damage to anything other than TV or Exo would maintain DPS parity and... not impact proc reliance since our procs would not be weaker in any fashion.

As nothing has happened there are no details to discuss and there is no intention to armchair quarterback Blizzard, I simply wanted the (in)sanity of the comment to be noted.

I think you misread Blizzard's quotation a bit - they said it wouldn't reduce our proc reliance, but would smooth out damage. Although your point that it could end up increasing proc reliance depending on where the damage goes is quite good.

saboya · 09/13/11, 9:44 AM

That should also increase our DPS outside execution phase, especially considering HoW clashes with TV during Zealotry.

Elidra · 09/13/11, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

For reference:
I have tested Censure and coefficients work out to a precise 40% increase (sometimes Blizzard is less than exact in what it communicates). Coefficients listed in the OP have been updated with the new information.

Looking at the OP, it says that HoL damage is only affected by Inquisition, but isn't it also affected by the 8% spell damage debuff?

Eclipsers · 09/13/11, 6:32 PM

Exemplar I think they were just talking more about moving the damage around so it isn't so reliant on all of our cds and then a minute and a half of lower damage... That was my take on the situation at least.

Cloudio · 09/13/11, 6:34 PM

About our stats , am reading every single reply here but am confused about our third best stat . Exampler recommend haste on his main spreadsheet however , I've been going through every single FL encounter and checking the top 200 paladins , most of them have critical as third best stat . Does that confirm that critical owns haste ?

Schädel · 09/13/11, 10:34 PM

I'll give you two examples:

1. You're pulling all of your CD's with a Crit based setup and you're only getting 2 AoW Proccs. Probably you would have get a third AoW Procc with a Haste basted setup. Now it seems that Haste would be superior to Crit because you loose one Exo during your CD phase which pushes your DPS by a lot in that time.

2. You're pulling all of your CD's with a haste based setup and none of your TV's crit. Now it seems that Crit would have been better.

I remember Baleroc kills where I ended up with an average TV Crit Damage of 48K because none of my TV's critted during Avenging Wrath + Zealotry while the other Ret pulled 2k DPS more and had average TV Crits of 65k.

Furthermore think of the first set of your cooldowns which can be shifted to an earlier time in the fight if you're getting a DP procc while Judging into combat at the pull. Even these seconds can have an impact on your overall DPS because you could loose one because the fight is 10 seconds to short and this can also have an impact if you're ranked at WoL or not. Wether crit nor haste have an impact on this.

I think most of the Rets can confirm that it can be very hard to reach their best result at a fight a second time even with better gear if the RNG was bad. And wether Haste nor Crit could have been the stat which they needed in that fight.

The right way would be to shift the damage we could get from our proccs into attacks which are not procc reliant so it would be possible to bring up more constant DPS to the raid. And then it could matter if crit or haste would be better, but with the current situation it doesn't really matter.

Aeoniel · 09/14/11, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Cloudio

About our stats , am reading every single reply here but am confused about our third best stat . Exampler recommend haste on his main spreadsheet however , I've been going through every single FL encounter and checking the top 200 paladins , most of them have critical as third best stat . Does that confirm that critical owns haste ?

The sweet spot for 'third best stat' is very dependent on which gear and spreadsheet you use. Personally I try to maintain a 2:1:1 mastery:haste:crit ratio. It may not be the best potential dps, but in my experience has been quite reliable. As far as "Does that confirm crit owns haste?" The question is, how big of a margin is the difference between crit and haste, and have you really looked at all the top 200 rets... or did you look at the top 20~? Fight length, fight strategy and RNG effect our dps more than anything. You can't make a realistic judgement of stats based purely on conjecture from brief WoL analysis.

Exemplar · 09/14/11, 3:04 PM

Stat Desirability
Furthermore you have situations like this:
Item A is higher iLevel than Item B, therefore has more stats. Item A has Crit and Mastery. Item B has Haste and Mastery. Raw quantity will typically cause Item A to win. That player would rightly use Item A even if they subscribed to Haste > Crit.

Additionally, the margin is small. Regardless how some people may dislike the fact, our RNG based variance is not small. A well geared toon under the control of a world class player should rank competitively high even if they choose the 'wrong' secondary stat order.

Blue Post
In the English language the phrase: "may not necessarily" strongly implies that there is at least the chance that it may indeed do so. The phrase "may not necessarily" is incorrect. Proper phrasing is "While it will not" - because there is absolutely no chance that reducing HoW would reduce proc reliance. HoW has nothing to do with procs. This is the root of the sanity question. The sentence is simply a non-sequitur.

I read the quote as 'We're planning to redistribute damage from HoW so there is less spike damage in PvP.' CommunismProc is just a red herring.

Butosai · 09/14/11, 7:20 PM

Kaisen and I have been discussing the benefit of this opening:

0 - Prepot, 4pt11 prot guardian
10 - AW, Zealotry, Inquisiton
15 - Priority Rotation(trinket whenever it hits 5 stacks)
20 - Priority Rotation(trinket whenever it hits 5 stacks)
25 - Priority Rotation(trinket whenever it hits 5 stacks) Pot fades
30 - AW Fades
45 - Zealotry fades, Guardian fades

The purose of this is currently a bulk amount of the prepot gets wasted because it obviously only lasts 25 seconds, and the bulk of our damage comes at the end of the cooldown rotation.

Using this, it spreads out the damage, while still boosting the beggining of the rotation while your under the effects of golemblood potion. Also having Aw at the start almost garuntees you will have 5 stacks of apparatus in a timely fashion. finally with spreading the damage out rather than frontloading the bulk of the damage at the end of the cooldown rotation, it lowers the amount of crit reliance that you will have in that last 15 seconds, and would allow you to control your damage more other than relying on those crits.

We thought about this but we are no mathemeticians so I brought this here.

Any thoughts?

(just wanted to add this is only an on the pull rotation, the current accepted cd rotation is definately best mid fight)

Cloudio · 09/15/11, 2:51 AM

Blue Post
In the English language the phrase: "may not necessarily" strongly implies that there is at least the chance that it may indeed do so. The phrase "may not necessarily" is incorrect. Proper phrasing is "While it will not" - because there is absolutely no chance that reducing HoW would reduce proc reliance. HoW has nothing to do with procs. This is the root of the sanity question. The sentence is simply a non-sequitur.

Did you mean HoW damage has nothing to do with procs ? as HoW is mentioned under Divine purpose proc spells .

The questions is , if we consider blizzard were so accurate about the relation between HoW damage and proc reliance , is there any hidden/unknown equation for proc chances that we are not aware of ? Did blizzard intended to give us a hint that there is a relation between HoW damage and proc reliance ?

I know procs are quite random , but eventually and in order to get a proc , there should be some number executions in the background which depend on alot of factors .

Babathong · 09/15/11, 3:30 AM

Originally Posted by Butosai

Kaisen and I have been discussing the benefit of this opening:

0 - Prepot, 4pt11 prot guardian
10 - AW, Zealotry, Inquisiton
15 - Priority Rotation(trinket whenever it hits 5 stacks)
20 - Priority Rotation(trinket whenever it hits 5 stacks)
25 - Priority Rotation(trinket whenever it hits 5 stacks) Pot fades
30 - AW Fades
45 - Zealotry fades, Guardian fades

The purose of this is currently a bulk amount of the prepot gets wasted because it obviously only lasts 25 seconds, and the bulk of our damage comes at the end of the cooldown rotation.

Using this, it spreads out the damage, while still boosting the beggining of the rotation while your under the effects of golemblood potion. Also having Aw at the start almost garuntees you will have 5 stacks of apparatus in a timely fashion. finally with spreading the damage out rather than frontloading the bulk of the damage at the end of the cooldown rotation, it lowers the amount of crit reliance that you will have in that last 15 seconds, and would allow you to control your damage more other than relying on those crits.

We thought about this but we are no mathemeticians so I brought this here.

Any thoughts?

(just wanted to add this is only an on the pull rotation, the current accepted cd rotation is definately best mid fight)

If your going to pop AW that early, specifically to help gain the 5 stacks of AoK, there is no reason to use Zealotry at the same time. The point would be to use HoW, like you stated, but if that is the case, you would not be using as many TVs as you should be while Zealotry is up. I personally agree that using AW a little early is a good idea to get the stacks up, but the main question here is whether or not its a good thing to use AW during Zealotry. The end result is the same here, no matter what anyone claims as their personal findings, math is the only way to truly find out what the most optimal way of using our cds would be.

Handled · 09/15/11, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Butosai

Kaisen and I have been discussing the benefit of this opening:

0 - Prepot, 4pt11 prot guardian
10 - AW, Zealotry, Inquisiton
15 - Priority Rotation(trinket whenever it hits 5 stacks)
20 - Priority Rotation(trinket whenever it hits 5 stacks)
25 - Priority Rotation(trinket whenever it hits 5 stacks) Pot fades
30 - AW Fades
45 - Zealotry fades, Guardian fades

The purose of this is currently a bulk amount of the prepot gets wasted because it obviously only lasts 25 seconds, and the bulk of our damage comes at the end of the cooldown rotation.

I played around with CD's last night to see if I could get a proper difference but the biggest issue I continue to come across is the inconsistency in divine purpose procs. They play such a huge role in our dps and there is no real basis as to how many divine purpose procs you can get. This alone skews any results you can come up with I think it is also the biggest issue with the spec right now in terms of competitive DPS.