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Old 09/26/11, 1:18 PM   #1441
CodeNameSly
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Warrior
 
The Forgotten Coast
Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
On the tier bonuses in general
...
Finally, set bonus between the classes certainly looks unbalanced. Comparing a 50% chance to proc a TV to a flat 55% damage increase to Shadow Word: Death (10 sec CD spell) and 400 mastery for 15 seconds on use of Elemental Mastery (3 min CD) - none of the three seem even vaguely related. Such vastly different effects on such wildly different types of ability definitely appear to be something that would be extremely difficult to balance. The risk seems inordinate that a class would jump from middle of the pack to uber-supreme when completing 4 piece or the converse of a class slipping from above average to low when the raid completes 4 piece bonuses and theirs just doesn't measure up to the others.
I wonder if this is due to the raid-wide buffs they're giving melee in 4.3. I play Warrior, Paladin, DK, and Rogue, and none of those set bonuses seem that exciting. I don't know the other classes well enough to speak for them, but it certainly seems that melee is getting a bit shorted on set bonuses.

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Old 09/26/11, 2:52 PM   #1442
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by CodeNameSly View Post
I wonder if this is due to the raid-wide buffs they're giving melee in 4.3. I play Warrior, Paladin, DK, and Rogue, and none of those set bonuses seem that exciting. I don't know the other classes well enough to speak for them, but it certainly seems that melee is getting a bit shorted on set bonuses.
It's not shorted nearly as much as wildly variate. I could see the bonuses being balanced separately between ranged and melee due to the mentioned melee-only raid bonus that has been "promised" by Blizzard, but even melee bonuses seem to compare as unbalanced.

Note: The following is used as an example of the difference between set bonuses, not as commentary on whether a given bonus is overpowered or too weak. The math is napkin-style and admittedly may be missing Warrior mechanics.

Our 4 piece gives us a flat bonus increase under Zealotry. With a bit of effort we could figure out an overall damage increase (12% bonus damage for 16.66% of a fight, modified by the preponderance of heavier attacks being used under that CD). So theoretically somewhere above 2% damage increase (more or less depending on fight length, therefore Zealotry CD usage). Typically 2 piece is about 2-2.5% damage increase and 4 piece another 2.5-3% for an overall 5% bonus when wearing a full tier set, so I suppose this is at least vaguely in line with previous precedence.

Compare that to some Warrior math I've seen. Their 4 piece has a 20% chance on Execute Crit (they estimate crit rate ~25%) to proc. I haven't warrior-ed in a long time, so not sure if there are any talents that modify the usability of Execute, but default Execute can only be used under 20% of boss health. So 20% chance of a 25% attack usable on 20% of the fight = effectively 1% chance. Probably lower since not every sub-20% attack is Execute, also Recape and I found through auditing logs that sub-20% is only about 19% of total fight length, so you shave off a little more effectiveness. Also if you refresh on the very next attack, you only gain 1.5 seconds total length, compared to right before it falls off getting most of the 6 seconds anew.

Bottom line comparison is Warrior (sub-)1% proc chance to Paladin about 2% flat damage increase. If that 1% doubles their damage it's still 1:2 ratio (they gained 100% for 1% of the time, we gained 2% for 100% of the time). The bonus would have to triple the warrior's damage for the time period for there to be parity.

Then there's the madness of the Mage's bonuses. I have no clue how they balance to other classes.

It just seems very odd that they would knowingly increase the difficulty of class balance. We all know and understand it's very difficult for Blizzard to effectively balance 30 classes (that's how it works with the differentiation provided by the talent trees). Adding another monkey wrench seems against their best interests.

I'm not saying bonuses are not balanced (they may work perfectly as listed), cannot be balanced, or should not be balanced. Merely stating that in current structure they do not appear to be balanced and look odd enough in comparison so as to be very difficult to accurately compare between classes and thus seem difficult for Blizzard to ensure such balance.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 09/26/11, 4:03 PM   #1443
saboya
Faceroller
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Firetree
I like the fact that the bonuses are not equal / alike. Bonuses that are too much like each other are boring, just look at the healers set-bonuses from all tiers of this expansion... Pratically the same. And boring.

However, it's a fact that some get the short end of the stick, but it's worse when it's obvious and they insist... Ret 2P seems just like that. Throwing more RNG on a RNG-heavy spec.

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Old 09/27/11, 4:06 AM   #1444
gcbirzan
Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
While correct in terms of coin flips and statistics, it doesn't apply to Ret paladin design. We presently have a dice roll (Divine Purpose) and a wheel spin (AoW). To that you're adding a coin flip. Does the coin flip create less variance? Nope, because it's not more of the same. Judgement producing HP does not affect AoW in the slightest (well, unless the extra HP alters whether you TV or Exo on a given GCD). 1 extra HP does not impact a no-HP-cost TV/Inq, either. You're neither more, nor less, likely to proc DivPurp or AoW with this bonus.
[snip]
Our major spike damage period is under the effect of Zealotry and AW (again linked when you break 4 T12). If you even happen to have a GCD for Judge during this period (not always the case if DivPurp and AoW procs are favourable), the HP it could generate is simply lost when your next CS generates 3 and fills your HP bar. Again no increase in spike, but it doesn't decrease it either.
While I agree that 2xT13 will not affect the variance during Zealotry/AW, it will affect it outside, even though to a very small degree outside, because getting 2-3 more TVs between CDs will have a small chance to proc DP so there are more coin tosses for that too.

Our 4xT13 however will make us way more reliant on luck during Zealotry/AW, because more of our overall damage will come from that period and we'll still be just as proc reliant in that period, which will mean that on the whole, we're getting to be even more proc reliant.

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Old 09/28/11, 4:40 AM   #1445
Zoidbrg
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Garrosh
Originally Posted by gcbirzan View Post
While I agree that 2xT13 will not affect the variance during Zealotry/AW, it will affect it outside, even though to a very small degree outside, because getting 2-3 more TVs between CDs will have a small chance to proc DP so there are more coin tosses for that too.
I don't see how getting extra TVs as a result of holy power from the 2 piece t13 affects Divine Purpose procs. Unless i'm understanding you incorrectly, there is a 10% chance on any ability used, be it exorcism, holy wrath, or whatever, to proc a divine purpose, so the extra holy power generated from judgements might increase TV usage, but it has the same chance to proc a divine purpose than if we used a filler or a CS. I'm not sure that I follow your reasoning.

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Old 09/28/11, 6:42 AM   #1446
Schädel
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Gul'dan (EU)
Divine Plea now grants a charge of Holy Power.
If this will go live, we gain a minor DPS Push and can push our Inquisition up before the fight and problably gain a DP procc if they keep our "lovely" RNG talent unchanged.

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Old 09/28/11, 7:53 AM   #1447
gcbirzan
Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Originally Posted by Zoidbrg View Post
I don't see how getting extra TVs as a result of holy power from the 2 piece t13 affects Divine Purpose procs. Unless i'm understanding you incorrectly, there is a 10% chance on any ability used, be it exorcism, holy wrath, or whatever, to proc a divine purpose, so the extra holy power generated from judgements might increase TV usage, but it has the same chance to proc a divine purpose than if we used a filler or a CS. I'm not sure that I follow your reasoning.
True, but there are times when you're just waiting for the next CD (outside of GCDs), so while minute, the increased chance to proc DP should be there.

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Old 09/28/11, 8:49 AM   #1448
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Zoidbrg View Post
I don't see how getting extra TVs as a result of holy power from the 2 piece t13 affects Divine Purpose procs.
If Judge provides a 50% chance at HP, on average every 6 Judge give an extra TV. That's one more attack that is eligible to proc DivPurp that you did not have previously. That one TV has a 15% chance to proc DivPurp. Therefore on average every Judge effectively has an extra 2.5% (1/6th of 15%) chance for a DivPurp.

While very small, I will stand corrected and admit that the tier bonus can indeed impact DivPurp in a somewhat sideways fashion (thank you, gcbirzan). In general it's still a third random proc that does not directly increase the proc rate of DivPurp (it remains 15% on same attacks) or AoW (20% on melee). This overall increases the RNG impact on our class, swinging us further under the umbrella of at the mercy of procs.

At this rate the 4.3 thread title is presently leaning towards The Book of Five RNGs.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 09/29/11, 5:23 PM   #1449
RebornTN
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Sargeras
Updated Tier 13 Set Bonus: Source

Retribution, 2P -- Your Judgement ability now also generates 1 Holy Power.
Retribution, 4P -- While Zealotry is active your abilities deal 12% more damage.

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Old 09/29/11, 6:50 PM   #1450
Medieve
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Turalyon
Originally Posted by RebornTN View Post
Updated Tier 13 Set Bonus: Source

Retribution, 2P -- Your Judgement ability now also generates 1 Holy Power.
Retribution, 4P -- While Zealotry is active your abilities deal 12% more damage.
Honestly, this is what they had to do to push judgment higher. I still have it falling behind TV and Exo, but it's now conditional. I still have it in the same order, even with this change, only because it still has a chance to proc DP. The interesting thing that I've seen so far is it tanks haste in favor of mastery. It also keeps a 2 filler between CS strikes optimal without them having to tweak how much haste we are able to get or tweaking the SoB talent for a 3 sec CS. Without a full gear list for T13, I can't be absolutely certain of this, but as we're gearing up I don't see why this would change.

The rules for judge are even more complicated than CS, but it guaranteeing another HoPo brings it up quite a bit. It might be best to throw up a flow chart. These are a prelimary list of what I'm using, all assuming CS is on cooldown and running a 2 filler model. If I'm missing something that you notice immediately, let me know, and I'll adjust accordingly. I just happen to have time this weekend where others may not .

If CS is down, no procs, Judge.
If CS is down, Exo procs, less than 3 HoPo, 1st filler Judge, 2nd Exo.
CS down, DP procs, less than 3 HoPo, TV/Inq then judge. TV (wasting a GCD for 15% chance at another immedate TV).
CS down, DP/Exo procs, DP 1st filler, Exo 2nd, re-evaluate as proc chain occurs.
CS to 3 HoPo, TV, Judge (any procs that follow used following judge)
CS to 3 HoPo, DP or Exo Proc, eat proc, TV until HoPo is gone, go back to restocking your HoPo. This means exactly that; if you drain your HoPo and hit a DP proc from that, you would CS > TV > Judge and hope for a new TV Proc. If your 2nd TV procs DP, you go back to back TV, and waste potential HoPo for immediate damage as normal.

If under 20% life or AW;
Inq >TV>CS > Judge > HoW> Exo > DP TV (less than 3 HoPo) > .....

Under 20% it became more complicated. I'm still working on it, seeing if I can follow what I'm modelling, but it seems to have pushed down our procs for our burn. It seems to favor more consistent damage with HoW being available.

If Judge didn't have a chance to proc DP, it'd follow similar rules as CS, but since it has that chance, it's still behind a DP proc in priority for me. Exo could go either way, but eating the proc's as quickly as you can seems to net a slightly higher dps build than holding them until you need a filler.

I don't find it really affecting the rotation more than prioritizing it as a filler to hit 3 HoPo to push out a TV sooner at the expense of a CS later. I've found no real situation where prioritizing it any differently that as a "the" go-to filler if you HoPo isn't filled is optimal. Even delaying a CS to get off a quicker 3 HoPo TV, the cooldowns and proc-reliance of our system overall don't show massive gains in optimizing the use of the extra HoPo, in fact, I only get a 1.2% DPS increase if using every point of HoPo we could possibly gain without wasting proc chances (which in real-world boss encounter mechanics, is unrealistic). As soon as we have any clash, we pick the highest DPS/PC, since RNG dictates that using our highest hitting abilities take precedence over building HoPo. Anytime I try to prioritize the building and spending of HoPo over maximizing the use of our 2 major procs, it comes out as a loss.

Edit: Going off of Ronark's suggestion, I threw DivPlea in, but outside of using it pre-pull, with it's long cool-down, it falls above Holy Wrath in rotation, and just barely with it being as situational as a CS without the damage. I've found that with the judgment change alone, you pretty much stop using consecrate by virtue of not making it that far down the line, and DivPlea brings in on most fights, 2 HoPo. The best I can find is a fight where you have to run in, pre-pull DivPlea and Judge on the pull, then Inq, or if you have a pull you can start in melee range, DivPlea > Inq at the pull and resume normal play. Beyond that, it's use if you have nothing better than HW to hit. I haven't seen this as a confirmed change however (and it's possible I just missed it, I have been busy this week), so I hesitate to go too far in depth with it.

Last edited by Medieve : 09/29/11 at 11:14 PM. Reason: Forgot to add HoW

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Old 09/29/11, 9:28 PM   #1451
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Don't forget about DivPlea, we'll need to fit that in our rotation as well. It will either be something to use in a dead-CD, or as a backup for a quick Inq-- Like Prot, I doubt we'll have a specific place to put it, but unlike Prot it won't be a waste of a GCD.

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Old 09/29/11, 11:25 PM   #1452
Medieve
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Turalyon
I've only seen it datamined as a possible Holy talent, but I had some time and played around with it anyway, mostly to see if using that would throw something else out of line and help me catch any errors. Edited the main post, but TL;DR version, use it pre-pull, or use it when you've got an open GCD and nothing else to use.

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Old 09/30/11, 12:35 AM   #1453
saboya
Faceroller
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Firetree
Divine Plea + 2pT13 allows us to have 3 HoPo within 2 GCDs at pull, which greatly reduces our pot/trinket RNG at the start of a fight... Also makes it really easy to maintain Inquisition with another source of HoPo.

We might actually unlink Zealotry and AW now with so much HoPo going on, but some math has to be done on this, since 4p bonus + AW would be pretty nice too.

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Old 09/30/11, 12:51 AM   #1454
Pliers
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Garona
I have done a lot of thinking to try to figure out our rotation. I know we greatly prefer math to conjecture in these forums, but I think there is enough merit from the logic to put here for others to critique, even without a sim to support it. I offer the following suggestion for our 2pcT13 rotation:

Unless specified, all Exorcisms are used with an AoW proc.

Our opener should be:
(Hard-cast Exorcism), J, CS, Plea, Inq, filler. If DP procs before the CS, use Inq before Plea.

Our standard rotation should be:
CS, J, filler, CS, (TV/Inq), filler.

1) No CSes at 3 HP. That means you'd have to dump any DP procs and 3 holy power before starting the cycle over.
2) Exo > DP in the first filler slot, DP > Exo in the 2nd filler slot.
3) Sub 20%, DP > HoW > Exo.
4) If neither DP, Exo, or HoW are available, HW > Plea > Conc. I have not yet figured with certainly if Plea is better than Conc, but my preliminary math says yes. It also avoids the riskier situation of having Conc eat away at mana you'll need. Unless HW is used far less frequently than I used for my calculations, HW should come before Plea.

This system is relatively rigid, and thus simple to follow. I don't know if it goes against Medieve's priority system or not. Maybe it's just late, but I struggled to follow all his rules in relation to one another.

Exo over DP in the first filler slot, because there's only a 15% chance of DP refreshing itself before the next filler if unused, but there's a 30% chance of AoW refreshing itself if unused. You use DP over Exo in the 2nd filler slot because you need to dump your holy power to start using CS and J again.

I reason that HoW is worth using over Exorcism. The main reason that Exo is used over DP in the first filler slot is that you don't want to waste procs and have empty globals. With HoW, that's far less likely. You'll average about 1 AoW, 1 DP, and 1 HW, every other 3-HP cycle. With HoW available, you almost entirely remove the risk of empty globals, and start replacing HWs, Plea, and Conc with DP and Exo.

Since both Exo and HoW can proc DP, and DP-TV is our hardest hitting ability, it makes sense to still prioritize DP over either.

Last edited by Pliers : 09/30/11 at 12:56 AM.

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Old 09/30/11, 2:01 AM   #1455
RebornTN
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Sargeras
Originally Posted by Pliers View Post
I reason that HoW is worth using over Exorcism.
We will have to wait and see what happens to our damage shift. If HoW loses enough damage it could be shuffled behind DP, Exo and Judgement. I'm really anxious to see what kind of damage shifts we end up with.

So far we've only seen the rework of holy paladin AoE healing and Prots 2pcT13 basing its damage absorption off Judgement could mean we may be looking at an increase of Judgement damage from current.

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