Last Time I checked, Tower of Radiance was giving greater-then-beacon returns under FoL conditions. This makes it useful in certain situations.

Certain situations where tanks are taking heavy damage, yes. In those situations cds are being used, negating incoming damage considerably (using HoS in junction with the tank's 1min cd, then walling another time, and repeating). The times are small enough and few and far between enough where I plan on using my LoH during one of them (letting tank know) for the mana return, and between the rest of our cds the damage becomes negligible to the point where FoL is not needed. I rarely ever cast FoL let alone on the BoL.
For me it comes down to ToR is 3 points or none, and those 3 points are useful in other places. Could be a personal preference, but getting high ranks against other holy pallies should count for something.
Talents & Glyphs - Game - World of Warcraft
40 yards on judgment allows use on cd more than you think. I'm moving around constantly for optimal positioning and not seeing "Not in range" is extremely pleasing.
As far as I'm concerned if one accepts the fact that ToR is mostly worthless, and in not getting it you free up your playstyle considerably, I think I have the cookiecutter spec for this xpac right now. Pursuit isn't needed because Lavarunner exists.

I've tried your posted spec; don't really like it... but it might just be personal preference (which is what Blizz wanted I guess!).

Here's what I use; and this has been a result of a lot of testing and personal trial and error:
Talents & Glyphs - Game - World of Warcraft

Personally; 1 point in imp judgement is plenty. I am constantly staying within 30 yards of melee (or ranged if we're grouping) in order to maximize LoD usage. If you're not in a position to use this effectively; you've already lost your efficiency from Holy Power. If you're moving constantly when you could be healing (that is, when a boss mechanic isn't requiring you to move); you've already lost overall healing efficiency.

That's the spec I have ended up on. I like it. I prefer it. With no "instant gib" AOE ability in the game that isn't meant to kill you; Aura Mastery is useless. I am referring of course to infest from H-LK. I have found some uses for AM, but they are so few and far between that the benefits it provides are, currently, not worth the point in PVE.

Finally, Blessed Life. The difference in 1 point and 2 points, in a full run, was not very remarkable. Having just ONE point generated an insane number of procs... and with the ICD... fast acting AOE's will proc it once. No more.

What ToR provides, regardless of your healing role, is on demand holy power generation. This is helpful before predictable AOE. HS someone, then fire off 2 FoL or DL on the tank to get yourself capped on HP. Quickly. Then fire off the LoD. This is very useful in situations like Maloriak fued phases when you need on demand AOE healing. You can generate a lot of HP fast, then let loose with quick LoDs.

Aura mastery may not be needed to save the day like it used to be, but it's still a short cool down that can save the raid a good amount of damage. It can be a tremendous mana saver, and it's just one point.

I like to think about aura mastery as the "just because you dont actually see it doesn't mean it's not useful" spell. This has been an ongoing argument since as far back as Ulduar days. We've had this spell for nearly two years now and there are still questions about it's actual usefulness. People have never actually been able to visualise the mitigation effect for themselves and therefore they do not see it as useful despite it actually being able to "absorb" an incredible amount of damage.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what people are saying. But let me put it like this in an incredibly crude way. The amount of damage that one aura mastery could mitigate might be the equivalent of casting two holy radiances worth of damage on the entire raid. How much mana is that? 18k.

I have not done any fights on heroic yet but I would presume that the amount of damage that it can mitigate on such aoe effects such as on Magmaw, Omnitron (Incineration), Valiona, and Ascendant Council fights could be a life safer due to such high hps requirements on those bursts of aoe damage.

Tower of radiance: The 3 talent points are invaluable. Not because the talent in itself is game breaking and defines paladin healing like it did, but because you will not get anything remotely close for your 3 points that you cannot alreayd get. There is no hardmode in which this talent should be omitted. The only case I can realistically think of is if a fight requires you to do something special and you have to spend +5 talent points into the prot or ret tree.

@Dougydoug
Healing meters tell relatively little without proper analysis. The fact that you produce "good" logs for what I can tell is only normal modes says nothing. Factors that are important are: your healing setup, the skill of the other healers in your raid, your tactic for an encounter, your specific role within the healing team, and a ton of other factos, of which taking tower of radiance or not will have no impact on your performance compared to what other factors I mentioned.

@TheEnder + UFTimmy
Aura mastery is probably the talent point that rewards the most virutal hps of all our talents. The only fight where it return the least is probably Halfus. All other fights have mechanics where you'll want this talent.

You should spec depending on the nature of the encounter anway, but never leave ToR out. It is as TheEnder says: On demand HP generation that will let you use LoD more.

This was the exact question I was asking myself, so I set myself to the task of programming an AutoIt3 script which would simulate a fight as a holy paladin.

Here were my results:
4-Piece: 19623.855 HPS

1-Piece*: 19863.124 HPS

2-Piece: 19982.847 HPS

*Note that [Reinforced Sapphirium Mantle] is BiS for 359 raiding, so it is used even if not going for either of the set bonuses.

Read on for details on the simulator.

I built a Wowhead profile for 359 BiS* gear for three scenarios : 1 piece (shoulders), 2 piece (shoulders, legs), and 4 piece (everything but chest).

*Gear was picked based on elvez's stat values incorporating my previous research on IoL procs and how it affects crit's value.

Here is the source to the script, if you're interested. Anyone familiar with programming should be able to understand it pretty fine whether or not you actually know the language, AU3 is a pretty simple language. Alternatively, here is a .txt file if you'd like to view it in your browser.

The simulator models INT, Spirit, Crit, Mastery, Haste, Daybreak procs, IoL procs, 2 mana tides, Arcane Torrent, Core of Ripeness (trink1), T11 4pc, T11 2pc, Divine Plea, etc. It uses a rotation of Judge > LoD (3 HP Only) > Holy Radiance > Holy Shock > HL or DL depending on set ratio > HL (if not enough mana to cast DL) > Divine Plea. This simulation assumes no overhealing is done.

I inputted that stat values for each gear configuration, and then toggled the 4pc and 2pc bonuses on or off accordingly. The simulator then finds the optimal time to use both Mana Tides. It takes a sample of 1000 boss fights (485 second fight length), and finds the average HPS. It then repeats the procces for all ratios of HL : DL usage. I took the highest HPS HL : DL ratio from each test, and compared them; which is what you see above.

Edit: Forgot to mention: The source code isn't documented AT ALL, as that is how I code smaller projects. Best of luck interpreting my sloppy work.

Did the DP change get scrapped? I don't see it in the patch notes though I recall reading about it before.

You'd probably benefit more from using CS than overhealing just to generate HP. LoD doesn't heal for that much.

I just saw that Power Torrent has been changed from INT to Spell Power. This in my wow but all the sites still say INT and i can not find any patch notes for this..

What Im wondering is this enchant any good now that its random chance to increase spell power?

Not if you aren't in melee range. If you are, then HS + CS + FoL on the beacon for a 3 HP LoD. LoD has been healing around 50k total for me + 25k beacon transfer. That's an absurd amount of healing for 1 spell... and it's a smart heal.

The point remains the same, ToR provides on-demand HP generation. It's more useful than the alternatives.

And I guess I can see the use of AM in heroics; I just dislike that it's a 2 min CD and it has to be used before damage hits... so you just have to judge when to use it (IE: when the raid is already low and damage is incoming) because it has that fairly long CD and you won't be able to use it a ton of times in a given encounter. Again, personal preference... but I could see myself taking a point out of Eternal Glory for it... seeing as how often I use WoG these days.

Agreed. The only fights that AM isn't useful for is fights that consist of only nature damage.

Don't think so, it's still listed here: Public Test Realm Patch 4.0.6 Notes - Updated Jan. 12 - World of Warcraft

It might be obvious, but AM is very helpful on the transition between p1 and p2 on Nefarian encounter.

Okay, I looked into the beacon thing a bit more. And basically there are two factors that more or less cancel each other out as far as the balance of spirit vs intellect goes.

Intellect gives you extra spellpower, true. And the effect of the beacon is to multiply this by 1.5 by channeling the heal onto the beacon target, which would seem to suggest it would be a pretty big boost to int (and that factor alone is in fact a pretty big boost to int, shifting the lines in the graph significantly to the left). But at the same time, something like 2/3 of the value of a heal spell is in the base heal, unaffected by int, and increasing that value by a factor of 1.5 (the effect of the beacon) shifts the lines significantly to the right. The extra base heal magnifies the effect of spirit by increasing the heal per mana on the base part of the spell. There are lots of complicating factors that play off each other, but that is the main gist of what is going on.

And the net result is that the effect of multiplying the spellpower scaling by 1.5 is almost exactly cancelled by the effect of multiplying the base spell heal by 1.5, at least for fights of the kind of length being considered. This is also the reason why spell choice doesn't factor in so much - although it greatly affects the overall healing done, the different base heals and coefficients just happen to be such that changing spells only has a minimal difference.

Conviction is bugged right now. It does increase your self-healing, but it has no effect on party members, NPCs, etc.
If you want to test it yourself, try a spec without Divinity. You'll easily notice the 9% difference.
There are several bug reports on both the US and EU forums, so let's hope Blizzard will fix this soon.


/e: Okay, just tested it again with a GM - confirmed as a bug.

I just ticketed for this issue and the answer from the gm was pretty fast, according to the response it's not working as intended (link for the screen below):

http://i.imgur.com/dwBUH.jpg

Hmm, well my GM would beg to differ:

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

Apparently working as intended.

Either way, I've respec'd until they sort it.

I've been keeping up with EJ holy paladin threads since mid ICC and I have been collecting ideas and arguments for a while now. A lot of this stuff may be TL; DR, but I'm sure many people will find value in this post.

1. For example, crusader striking for holy power:
Crusader strike is about 2.3k mana unglyphed, and 1.6k mana glyphed. With a 2.6 weapon speed, this is a 2.6/4.0=65% chance to restore 937 mana. This averages to 610 mana per crusader strike restored on average and one holy power gained. With the glyph, this is still a net mana loss of 1k in a gcd for one holy power and 1.7k without the glyph (which is, in itself a cost since you must drop either Divinity, Light of Dawn, or Divine Plea, all very solid major glyphs). If you were to use every 3 holy power on a WoG, that would effectively cost it 4 gcds and 3k mana (or 5.1k mana unglyphed) all for something that hits for less than a divine light. Some people mentioned using this during downtime, but holy light/judgment spamming with melee hits is already better for effective hps. I just don't understand the logic of burning 5-6 seconds of gcds and 3k mana for a single WoG or even a fully effective light of dawn, for that matter. I have never seen holy power heals (WoG+LoD) combine for more than 12% of any holy paladin's healing on worldoflogs.com. If someone can show me how this is effective, please do, I am fully open to a clarification but a sufficient one has not been posted thus far.

2. Am I the only one who has noticed an ICD on Eternal Glory? I do heroics as prot and raids as holy and I have not seen a SINGLE back to back Eternal Glory proc in at least 2 weeks. I have not checked other threads since I'm only really concerned about holy, but this is an important issue if it does truly exist. What I mean by "back to back" is being able to word of glory 3 or more times in a row with refreshing holy power. I have not been able to word of glory more than twice in a row in the past 2 weeks. If this is a legitimate nerf, then it effectively reduces the usefulness of the talent (if it's only 30% on the first word of glory, then it's effectively only activating maybe 20% of the time, or less as compared to previously). Also, this could suggest that all Eternal Glory procs be used on Light of Dawn since subsequent WoG will not proc Eternal glory.

3. The controversial 4p t11. I believe this will mostly boil down to playstyle and raid setup. I do 10 man raids with a prayer of healing spamming disc priest and I find myself NOT using Holy Radiance on cooldown. In 25 man raids, I have seen some paladins pull up to 20% of their healing with this spell on fights with light aoe (Maloriak, Halfus, etc.) But I feel that it does not take much work to reveal the true benefit of the four piece. 1620 spirit over 10 seconds is approximately .55*1620=891 mp5 * 2 periods of 5 seconds = 1782 mana. % Mp5 from spirit is based off of intellect, my own multiplier is .55 but I'm sure in full t11 it will be as high as .60 or .65. Point is, at 1782 mana restored PER holy radiance (cost of approx 9.4k) the true benefit of the four piece bonus is that it reduces the mana cost of holy radiance by 1.8k(give or take up to .2k for gear)/9.4k=19% (give or take up to 2% for gear). That is the true value of having 4p t11.

4. Word of Glory in general (Note: These figures are all rounded and may be slightly off from yours, but should be similar when compared proportionally). Mine hits for about 17k (glyphed, at 3 HP) and 25k crits. Of course, this value is beaconed so the average healing done by a single Word of Glory cast (including overheal) is (at 20% WoG crit chance) is about 28k healing. The value when the target is under 35% with 2/2 Last Word (80% combined crit) is 35k. Now, lets compare it to the raw hps of Light of Dawn. Glyphed, it will hit 6 targets (and lets assume that one of the targets IS your beacon). Mine hits for 6k (with a 20% chance to crit for 9k, all of these values are at 3 HP) placing it at 5 raid member heals for 6.6k per (33k raid healing) with 16.5k beacon transfer PLUS 6.6k to your 6th light of dawn directly hitting the beacon and NOT transferring. This places a single one of my LoD at 33k+16.5k+6.6k=56k. LoD is DOUBLE the raw healing of WoG and is still comparable for tank healing since the single tank beacon receives about 23k healing as opposed to a total of 28k healing on two tanks. Point being, why do we use this spell? Surely 5k bonus tank healing isnt worth sacrificing 33k raid healing, and, LoD can potentially hit both tanks, making it so that LoD pulls the SAME TANK HEALING as WoG PLUS about 27k raid healing. The 30% chance to restore holy power through Eternal Glory (and even that may suck if an ICD is discovered) makes WoG slightly more effective as a tank healing spell, but still way less effective as raw healing output.

EDIT: 5. Aura Mastery is a MUST HAVE. Resistance aura negates approximately 25% fire/frost/shadow damage and with aura mastery it negates approximately 40%. Going from 75% magic damage taken to 60% magic damage taken is an effective (100%-60/75%)=20% FURTHER damage reduction from just the regular aura. Also, using AM on Devotion Aura is an additional 4.1k armor. I do not have the numbers for this, but I believe it is somewhere around 8-10% FURTHER physical damage reduction on tanks for 6 seconds (equal to a 359 trinket proc, but over a shorter duration of course). The 6 second duration is lame since it was almost twice as long in WOTLK, but it still serves a purpose. This spell costs no mana and activates no GCD as well.
End Edit

These are simply my thoughts, but I would like to believe they carry some value and may clarify things/bring up topics that other players have been considering. An alternative explanation to crusader strike benefit and research into Eternal Glory would be very well appreciated. I do not wish to start an argument, and I do apologize for not bringing up these topics when they were earlier discussed, but these topics have not reached a resolution yet and these issues are not trivial "How does word of glory work? What does crusader strike do?" but seek to discover alternative play styles and efficiencies/inefficiencies between them. I personally prioritize Word of Glory over Light of Dawn simply because I do not have 6 people always in front of me in 10 man raids and I still have faith that my Eternal Glory will proc twice in a row.

I've read a discussion about Eternal Glory having a 15 second ICD some days ago and started a thread on the German forums myself. Some people said they still had double procs now and then, but after excessive testing (casting WoG every time I had 1 HP for about an hour all together) I was either very very unlucky or they just got something wrong. Looking at the combat logs, the smallest gap between two EG procs was indeed something around 15.2 seconds for me.
Even if there is no ICD (I'd be glad to see some evidence), I'm pretty sure they've changed something compared to the beginning of Cataclysm, where I had lots of multiple procs.


Regarding your thoughts about LoD vs. WoG: Keep in mind that, if you don't have enough people in front of you, it still heals yourself. You really don't always need 6 other targets to top WoG when it comes to tank/beacon healing. Besides I have the feeling that many people extremely underestimate LoD's range. Still, both skills are highly situational and there are many possible cases of what LoD might hit. I don't think you can give a general answer to when to use each skill.

I can confirm that it does not have an ICD, i have had many proc's off of Word of Glory's that i Recieved the holy power from Eternal Glory even.

Chances are you had bad luck, the talent is 100% RNG from my experience, i just did the same testing as you did and had double procs sometimes i would get any for 20-30 seconds sometimes i got one every 5-8 seconds i am not seeing any pattern.

I'd be impressed to see his shortest gap be 15.2 seconds over an hour of spamming if it did not have an internal cooldown. I specifically remember getting 5x Eternal Glory procs in a row in ICC every 2 boss pulls or so but have yet to see that now over 2-3 weeks of heroics and raids. I may just send in a ticket for confirmation. 30% is actually quite reliable and unlikely to be subject to bad RNG for longer than 3 minutes.