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Old 01/14/11, 8:47 PM   #276
Noules
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Onyxia
Originally Posted by Lightrender View Post
I've been keeping up with EJ holy paladin threads since mid ICC and I have been collecting ideas and arguments for a while now. A lot of this stuff may be TL; DR, but I'm sure many people will find value in this post.

1. For example, crusader striking for holy power:

2. Am I the only one who has noticed an ICD on Eternal Glory?

3. The controversial 4p t11.

4. Word of Glory in general

EDIT: 5. Aura Mastery is a MUST HAVE.

These are simply my thoughts, but I would like to believe they carry some value and may clarify things/bring up topics that other players have been considering. An alternative explanation to crusader strike benefit and research into Eternal Glory would be very well appreciated. I do not wish to start an argument, and I do apologize for not bringing up these topics when they were earlier discussed, but these topics have not reached a resolution yet and these issues are not trivial "How does word of glory work? What does crusader strike do?" but seek to discover alternative play styles and efficiencies/inefficiencies between them. I personally prioritize Word of Glory over Light of Dawn simply because I do not have 6 people always in front of me in 10 man raids and I still have faith that my Eternal Glory will proc twice in a row.
1. I agree with the CS analysis. I personally don't see how you can justify using CS unless you're already at full mana (especially since iirc the CS CD isn't even hasted - thus costing more than 1 GCD in relative time).

2. I have noticed that I haven't gotten back to back Eternal Glory procs since I've specced back into it (for a couple of weeks after Cata I avoided it due to the LoD being ridiculous). Haven't analyzed what the ICD might actually be, but 15 seconds is a believable number.

3. The main reason why 4 pc T11 is controversial is the lack of haste, but looking at Evarella's analysis of spirit vs. intellect pretty much demonstrates that spirit is by far the best secondary stat (and probably close to 1.5-2x better than any other secondary). If you can generate ~100 average spirit per each piece of T11, you could easily justify at least 4pc; this represents about 25% uptime on Holy Radiance, or once every 40 seconds. At that level of usage, 4pc t11 seems easily better (especially since you can reforge a portion of the extra secondary into haste anyway) and probably justifiable even at lower usage of Holy Radiance.

4. I personally use WoG over LoD because I can't always hit 6 people with it. You suggested the same reason later, so this question seems odd. Using your numbers, WoG is better or equivalent if you have 3 targets or less (~4 if one of those is the Beacon). On any fight that requires range to spread out, I can typically only guarantee hitting the melee, myself and maybe the tank, which is ~3-4 people for me in 10 man, and requires all of those targets to be hurt (and requires me to be within 30 yards). If you factor in 30% from Eternal Glory, LoD is only really a win with 5+ targets. There are also other situations where hitting the most hurt individual is more important than hitting a lot of people. Also, without the LoD glyph, LoD is only very slightly better when considering EG; if I accidentally miss someone or have to move to hit the 5th, WoG is generally better. Given the point about the EG ICD, however, it might generally be better to get in the habit of WoG->LoD on proc if LoD has a decent, not optimal number of targets (especially since you can use the WoG GCD to move slightly if needed).

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Old 01/14/11, 11:25 PM   #277
Shakaros
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Xavius (EU)
CS for holy power

I am very interested in figuring out if using Crusader strike is worth it. I initially didnt do it when HL could generate HP on the beacon target. After the hotfix I started using CS to make up for the loss. And having fairly good results. So trying to transcend my normativity:

- What is the exact HPS and HPM implications of Crusader strike healing behavior? That somehow needs to be detemined in a resonable manner.

- The rational intent of me using CS has been something like: Generating holy power enables increased use of LoD. LoD is the spell that puts out the most healing in one global. So increasing its use can only be good on average (then how much better/worse is it?). Is this detrimental in any way? Generating on demand holy power through other sources than beacon/holy shock can mean a lot of things. Putting out several LoDs within a very short timeframe. Having to resort less to ToR healing (that has a tendency to result in overhealing).

- LoD in itself is a smart heal and chooses targets better than I do (assuming a situation where the six lowest targets are actually the best to heal).

- Trying to figure out more good reason to use CS has actaully put me at a loss. It seems to come down to the HPS/HPM situation using CS instead of HL/DL.

Other thoughts?

EDIT: On another note I almost never encounter a situation where I use WoG over LoD. The only time is when healing is needed on a single target and it only makes sense to WoG. If healing is needed on several targets I almost always have 6 targets. So the in between scenario rarely exists for me. This is from a hardmode 25man perspective.

Last edited by Shakaros : 01/14/11 at 11:35 PM.

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Old 01/15/11, 12:20 AM   #278
motorfirebox
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Stormscale
Am I missing something, or is the formula for Spi regen off by about 200%? What it says in the main post is:

0.0025 + 0.00836(Sqrt[Int]) as Mp5 out of combat
My Int is 4047. The value I get when I plug my Int into the equation is 0.534330059.

Checking my acutal charsheet, by adding and removing a trinket with 215 Spi, I can see I'm getting 106.511628 out of combat mp5 per 100 Int, or 53.4883721 in combat mp5. The reason I mention that last number is, well, it's almost exactly 100 times the figure I got from the formula.

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Old 01/15/11, 2:09 AM   #279
Lightrender
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Ner'zhul
Originally Posted by motorfirebox View Post
Am I missing something, or is the formula for Spi regen off by about 200%? What it says in the main post is:



My Int is 4047. The value I get when I plug my Int into the equation is 0.534330059.

Checking my acutal charsheet, by adding and removing a trinket with 215 Spi, I can see I'm getting 106.511628 out of combat mp5 per 100 Int, or 53.4883721 in combat mp5. The reason I mention that last number is, well, it's almost exactly 100 times the figure I got from the formula.
Seems like it's off by a factor of 100. Maybe the OP means 1 spirit provides this formula's worth in mp5, not 100 spirit.

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Old 01/15/11, 4:08 AM   #280
Jaybird
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Priest
 
Bronzebeard (EU)
Based on the discussion around back-to-back EG procs (I also haven't seen any since respec'ing back to EG) I thought it would be interesting to see whether EG generated HP falls off in the same way normal HP does (i.e. 1 point at a time instead of all 3 at once). It does, and after refreshing just the last point I did get another EG proc.

It also seems that HP falls off at a rate slower than 1 every 15 secs. Would it be worthwhile casting regular heals for 15 seconds before firing off another WoG? Naturally delaying the use of HS so it is available to start generating HP again if we don't get another EG proc.

Last edited by Jaybird : 01/15/11 at 4:17 AM.

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Old 01/15/11, 4:15 AM   #281
sheaebay
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Deathwing
Originally Posted by Lightrender View Post
I'd be impressed to see his shortest gap be 15.2 seconds over an hour of spamming if it did not have an internal cooldown. I specifically remember getting 5x Eternal Glory procs in a row in ICC every 2 boss pulls or so but have yet to see that now over 2-3 weeks of heroics and raids. I may just send in a ticket for confirmation. 30% is actually quite reliable and unlikely to be subject to bad RNG for longer than 3 minutes.
Are you 100% certain of this? Since the Cataclysm release the Holy power I've gained from Eternal Glory has NEVER procced again after using another word of glory. I'm reading several reports of people saying they have had 5 or 6 back to back procs.. I don't want to call them liars but I guess I am I guess I'm one of those. "I need to see it to believe it people."

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Old 01/15/11, 4:38 AM   #282
Lightrender
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Ner'zhul
I'm pretty sure they're full of it if they're saying they are getting 5-6 back to back Word of Glory procs. Either this is a bug for a specific spec, talent or glyph or they're simply not paying attention. I could have sworn it had no ICD for the first week or two of cata, but this ICD has definitely been going on for the past couple weeks and I'll eat my words if anyone can post a legit video of back to back EG procs.


I have decided to model Crusader Strike “theory” into HPS/HPM due to curiosity and the request of another poster. I am only using in game values and Worldoflogs.com estimates in my gear/spec, Weapon speed is 2.3. I’m using this value because of the Nefarian mace (spirit/mastery, and I’m 99% positive this is BiS) with about 30% haste combined from 1369 rating, 5% raid haste, 3% speed of light, 9% judgment. These numbers should be within a couple % accuracy of raid tested values. All of the “HPM/HPS” values are based on 0% overheal, therefore some of these techniques may be extremely ineffective based on who is taking damage and at which times. CS+1 stack LoD has extreme HPM potential, especially when glyphed. From these numbers, even a complex CS focused rotation will pull comparable RAW HPS and superior HPM as compared to pure Holy Light. Be warned though, this does NOT conclusively prove which strategy is better, but you do get the most control and less overhealing when using Holy Light and WoG as opposed to Crusader Strike and LoD, but a CS+LoD combo is a setup I foresee using on fights with phases of light raid damage (Argaloth, Maloriak). CS is clearly a mana saver in many of these situations because of its ability to restore most of its own cost through melee swings during instant casts while building up HP, something that cannot be credited to pure HL spam.

1. CS+1 HP Word of Glory: 2.3k/1.6k mana cost (-~1100 restored)=1.2k/500 mana cost for about 9.3k healing (if you use my previous calculation of 28k healing for 3 holy power) including beacon+main target. If we assume melee hits on a 2.6 speed weapon to proc seal of insight 2.3/4=57.5% of the time on a CS and the two instants would not reset weapon swing timer, giving a 57.5% chance for ANOTHER SoI proc. The WoG would proc one PotI granting an average of 9k healing including beacon. This would be 20.3k healing over (1.5+hasted spell GCD)=2.65 seconds or so. 20.3k healing for 1.2k/500 mana over 2.65 seconds.

CS+1 HP WoG HPS: 7.7k HPM: 16.9 or 40.6 (glyphed) This does not factor in Rule of Law or Eternal Glory, which would effectively increase both of these amounts, but are too variable considering that almost nobody specs for Rule of Law and that Eternal Glory quite possibly has an ICD that you would not even want to use on a single holy power WoG.

2. CS+1 HP Light of Dawn: Same cast time and mana cost of previous calculation. The only difference is that Light of Dawn will do about double the healing of WoG. So the numbers would be 29.6k (including SoI heal+PoTI) healing over 2.65 seconds for 1.2k/500 mana.
CS+1 HP LoD HPS: 11.2k HPM: 24.7 or 59.2 (glyphed)

3. One of my holy lights hits for about 10k (factoring in crits)+5k over 1.91 seconds fully raid buffed at 2107 mana cost. The difference is that PotI will activate off of this, providing an average 6k healing to oneself and 3k to the beacon. This puts Holy Light at 24k healing over 1.91 seconds for 2107 mana.
Holy Light HPS: 12.7k HPM: 11.4

Now this is where the numbers get interesting. If you use crusader strike in order to get holy power but NOT to immediately use it, the mana costs remains the same but the healing effectiveness, rotation and hps/hpm change. I don't see another way to model this without going through a complete rotation which seems quite plausible as a “healing rotation” due to the timing of short cool downs and ability to max out HP every 9.7 seconds.

4. Holy Shock->Crusader Strike->Holy Light->Holy Light->Crusader Strike->WoG: Length of rotation: 2*1.5 (CS) +1.15 (WoG) +2*1.91 (HL) +1.15 (Holy Shock)+.6 (downtime before CS reset after first completion)=9.72 seconds to complete. SoI procs= .575*2 Crusader Strikes + 5.9/4 (seconds of melee uptime/(60/PPM, not including Holy Lights - since they reset melee swings). SoI will activate approximately 2.625 times per rotation, restoring 2460 mana and about 4000 healing. The mana cost of this rotation is: 1873 + 2*2107+ 2*2342 (1649 glyphed) = 10771 mana cost, 9385 glyphed. Including SoI mana restoration, total cost would be 8311 or 6925 glyphed. Healing done:
Holy Light: 24k*2
Holy Shock: 21k
SoI: 4k
3 HP WoG(+PoTI): 37k
Total Healing: 110k
Total Time: 9.72 seconds
Effective Mana Cost: 8311 or 6925 (glyphed)
HPS: 11.31k HPM: 13.24 or 15.88

5. Not going to redo the math, simply switch out WoG for Light of Dawn and add 28k healing to the total healing (for 138k total):
HPS: 14.2k HPM: 16.6 or 19.9 glyphed

Edit: Forgot to factor in PotI into a couple of the calculations, revising them should yield higher hps/hpm for setups 1, 2, 4 and 5 as well as a missing Holy Light in 4 (good catch, didnt notice).

Last edited by Lightrender : 01/15/11 at 7:14 PM.

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Old 01/15/11, 6:21 AM   #283
Malleus
King Hippo
 
Human Paladin
 
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
Originally Posted by Noules View Post
3. The main reason why 4 pc T11 is controversial is the lack of haste, but looking at Evarella's analysis of spirit vs. intellect pretty much demonstrates that spirit is by far the best secondary stat (and probably close to 1.5-2x better than any other secondary). If you can generate ~100 average spirit per each piece of T11, you could easily justify at least 4pc; this represents about 25% uptime on Holy Radiance, or once every 40 seconds. At that level of usage, 4pc t11 seems easily better (especially since you can reforge a portion of the extra secondary into haste anyway) and probably justifiable even at lower usage of Holy Radiance.
The problem with that is the only thing we use Spirit for is to boost regen. According to Lightrender's figures, 4T11 returns around 1900 mana but it costs 9400 mana to trigger it. Spending 9% of our mana to get 2% back is not a regen boost. As such, Lightrender is correct in saying the true value of 4T11 lies in its effective cost reduction on Holy Radiance. This goes double in 4.0.6, when we will no longer be able to sync Holy Radiance with Mana Tide for massively boosted regen.

Re: Crusader Strike. When I was championing this as a way to gain HoPo, it wasn't meant to be as a primary source. It's simply the cheapest source of HoPo we have after Holy Shock. If we cannot afford to generate HoPo by casting Flash or DL on the Beacon - or we aren't specced for Tower - then it's the only reliable way we have to use a big heal for free more often than every 18 seconds. That's a mana saving from both ends; less expenditure to generate our HoPo, and more frequent use of 3-point Word/LoD.

Lightrender, your rotation figures are out - you've only included one of the Holy Lights in the total healing. Regardless, the better CS rotation with Beacon would be HS - DL to Beacon - CS - Word - Judgement. Plugging in your numbers and assuming DL is 22k and EJs is 10k, you get ~81k healing in 8 seconds at a cost of 11k mana, 3.5k of which is returned. Even including your second HL that's equivalent HPS and HPM, needs no glyphs where your rotation needs two, and mana return is guaranteed rather than proc-dependent.

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Old 01/15/11, 6:59 AM   #284
Noules
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Onyxia
Originally Posted by Malleus View Post
The problem with that is the only thing we use Spirit for is to boost regen. According to Lightrender's figures, 4T11 returns around 1900 mana but it costs 9400 mana to trigger it. Spending 9% of our mana to get 2% back is not a regen boost. As such, Lightrender is correct in saying the true value of 4T11 lies in its effective cost reduction on Holy Radiance. This goes double in 4.0.6, when we will no longer be able to sync Holy Radiance with Mana Tide for massively boosted regen.
Well, I'm certainly not advocating using more HR with 4T11 simply in an attempt to regain mana. But if the encounter benefits from that level of HR usage, 4T11 looks pretty attractive. Viewing 4T11 as a mana cost reduction on HR is a valid interpretation, but it's not the only or necessarily the most useful one. The primary issue at hand is whether or not the gear set up is better than the alternative; in order to do that, we need to be able to formulate some comparison with the alternatives. The method I am proposing is to calculate the equivalent value of the set bonus in terms of spirit on gear, for a given uptime on HR, without suggesting that it's necessary to change the usage of HR.

Again, my basic argument is:

1) If the alternate secondary stat on the set pieces were switched out for reforge-level haste and rest spirit, the pieces would be worthwhile without considering the set bonus;

2) The uptime required on HR in order to get the effect of 1) is not completely unreasonable (~400 spirit equivalent should be necessary, which seems to correspond to about 25% uptime on HR, or every 40 seconds);

3) You get the benefit of the actual stat left after reforging plus the spirit-equivalent of the set bonus plus the haste.

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Old 01/15/11, 11:45 AM   #285
elvez
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Stormrage (EU)
@Evarella: Are the values for Intellect and Spirit in your graph buffed or unbuffed?
Also, what has been said about the beacon could be said about PotI (it's getting nerfed though), am I right? Given it appears to have a very low spellpower coefficient...
Or did you already include that into your calculations?

Thanks to the feedback I received, I was able to update my calculations. I'll try to expose briefly what I changed and how I modeled IoL and Daybreak. This is still from a pure theoretical standpoint, focusing on single-target healing, and doesn't include spirit into the picture, nor the mana-related advantages of intellect. Though Evarella has already provided with an excellent contribution to the int vs spirit debate.

Given the amount of computations needed, I used a MATLAB script to automate the process and try different stat values. Give it a look if you're interested, even if you don't know the language, it's very intuitive and heavily documented. A free interpreter of MATLAB scripts is Octave.

My first step in updating my calculations was to include PotI and account better for beacon of light.
We already know the base heal for a 3/3 PotI is 4002 (pre-nerf), so I gathered a small sample of PotI heals using different spellpower levels and specs.
From this, I got a spellpower coefficient of 0.0564, and I verified PotI is affected by the 15% passive healing increase of holy spec. So even though I didn't verify it explicitly, I assumed all other healing modifiers apply to PotI as well.

This way, on average, and accounting for critical strikes and beacon, each direct healing spell not cast on self will heal for an additional:

PotI = (4002 + SP * 0.0564) * (Spec + SoI) * Divinity * Conviction * (1 + 0.5 * Crit%/100) * (Divinity + Beacon)
       = (4002 + SP * 0.0564) * (1.15 + 0.05) * 1.06 * 1.09 * (1 + 0.5 * Crit%/100) * (1.06 + 0.5)
This is obviously in the best possible case, with the caster not at full health, otherwise the beacon multiplier will go down, reaching 0.5 in case of no useful healing on the caster.

Including the PotI value calculated just before and Mastery, a direct heal will generate, in the best possible case:

Heal * Beacon + Heal * (Mastery%/100) + PotI
(Assuming "Heal" is the average value of the healing spell, taking into account critical heals and the appropriate healing modifiers.)

That's basically the formula I used to evaluate the contribution of stats. As we'll see, the apparently very low coefficient of PotI puts intellect at a disadvantage when speaking about pure HPS.

I also updated the calculations for Word of Glory to account for the attack power scaling component.
First our buffed AP, as I'm not 100% sure it's correct:

AP = (255 + (how + enchants + 161 - 10) * 2) * might 
    = (255 + (549 + 15 + 161 - 10) * 2) * 1.1 = 1853
And what currently appears to be the fundamental formula for WoG (@ 3 holy power) is:

WoG = 6399 + SP * 0.627 + AP * 0.639
To account for Daybreak and Infusion of Light I used a very simple theoretical model, and evaluated an upper bound for the contribution of stats increases to Daybreak proc chance, the average number of HL/DL that can be cast while HS is on cooldown, and the holy power generated per second. By estimating the effect of stat increases on those quantites,
I could account for the change in the throughput of HL, DL, HS, and WoG.

More in detail, for a given Haste%, the cast time of a HL/DL will be:

heal_cast = 2.5 / (1 + Haste%/100)
The model assumes the first spell cast is an HS, and the second is a WoG/LoD. At this stage, the first 1.5 seconds are used by HS and just after that 0.5 seconds are used (on average) by WoG/LoD (GCD * Holy Power / 3).

In case the HS was a crit, the next HL/DL will require 1.5 seconds less. So, on average, the next HL/DL cast will last:

IoL_cast = (heal_cast - 1.5) * (Crit%/100 + 0.1) + heal_cast * (1 - Crit%/100 - 0.1)
(as IoL gives +10% crit to HS).

So there are still (6 - 1.5 - 0.5 - IoL_cast) seconds before HS goes off cooldown. Assuming nothing other than HL/DL are cast will give an upper bound to Daybreak proc chance, so the average number of HL/DL that can be cast on this time span are:

heals = (6 - 1.5 - 0.5 - IoL_cast) / heal_cast
(it is not rounded or truncated)

This gives an initial Daybreak proc chance of (the +1 is the HL/DL accounting for the IoL proc):

daybreak = min((heals + 1) * 0.2, 1)
The algorithm is then iterated to account for Daybreak procs, calculating the average "cast time" of HS and WoG using:

HS_cast = 1.5 * (1 + daybreak)
WoG_cast = (1.5 / 3) * (1 + daybreak)
and calculating again the number of average HL/DL casts possible before HS goes off cooldown.
Only a few iterations are needed for the Daybreak proc chance and the cast time affected by IoL to stabilize.

The increase in daybreak proc chance is used to scale HS healing increases, while the change in holy power per second is used to scale WoG healing increases. The change in the average number of HL/DL cast in between HS is finally used to give a better estimate of overall haste increases to HL and DL.

While this model shows that haste gives an indirect increase to the output of HS and WoG/LoD, it seems to be pretty much insensitive to crit changes, suggesting that a lot of crit is needed for IoL to make a difference, or perhaps that my calculations are wrong!

I should point out I was somewhat tricked into reasoning that crit is a peculiar mana saver, but the truth is it isn't any more than intellect or mastery. Since crit saves mana by making spells heal more on average, the same can be said about intellect and mastery (albeit in different ways). It remains to see if haste can give comparable benefits in mana preservation...

On the other hand, better accounting for mastery gives a more realistic value of crit with respect to the ones I previously calculated.
The amount of mastery on gear needed to make crit overtake haste is probably very high though, and this is still assuming the value of haste isn't influenced at all by mastery, which is a bit unrealistic.

Ok, sorry if I bored you, here are some values I estimated for various stat values. The "naive" estimate for haste is calculated similarly to how I did in the other post and there are values for crit under different situations.

There are also weighted averages for more diverse arrangements. They are:

Single target, heavy damage:


FoL: 30%
HL: 20%
DL: 10%
HS: 20%
WoG: 20%

Single target, moderate damage:

FoL: 5%
HL: 20%
DL: 30%
HS: 20%
WoG: 25%

Multiple target, low WoG usage:

FoL: 20%
HL: 35%
DL: 20%
HS: 20%
WoG: 5%


Setup: Erthadan (Entry-level raider)

4201 intellect
1729 spellpower on items
674 crit rating
1623 haste rating
104 mastery rating
(for all setups, stats are as read on armory/character sheet)

Increase to heal values, in HPS:

Stat+FoL+HL+DL+HS+WoG
+100 Intellect2297318176179
+100 Haste rating (naive)24710020200
+100 Haste rating (including Daybreak)209841713249
+100 Crit rating1415311956131
+100 Crit rating (factoring IoL)1415311956131
+100 Mastery rating9933883495

Weighted averages:

ScenarioIntellectHaste rating(naive)Haste rating (+Daybreak)Crit ratingCrit rating (+IoL)Mastery rating
Single: Heavy15211411310210271
Single: Moderate1409397979768
Multi132125114888860

Setup: Full ivl 359 (focus on haste)

5045 intellect
1954 spellpower on items
558 crit rating
1904 haste rating
90 mastery rating

Increase to heal values, in HPS:

Stat+FoL+HL+DL+HS+WoG
+100 Intellect2347418576179
+100 Haste rating (naive)26410521500
+100 Haste rating (including Daybreak)223881813451
+100 Crit rating1535712959139
+100 Crit rating (factoring IoL)1535712959139
+100 Mastery rating109369636102

Weighted averages:

ScenarioIntellectHaste rating(naive)Haste rating (+Daybreak)Crit ratingCrit rating (+IoL)Mastery rating
Single: Heavy15512212011011077
Single: Moderate1429910310410474
Multi134133121959566

Setup: Full ivl 359 (focus on mastery, not a real gear set)

5045 intellect
1954 spellpower on items
558 crit rating
904 haste rating
1090 mastery rating

Increase to heal values, in HPS:

Stat+FoL+HL+DL+HS+WoG
+100 Intellect2257117879185
+100 Haste rating (naive)26410521500
+100 Haste rating (including Daybreak)225891833553
+100 Crit rating1465412260141
+100 Crit rating (factoring IoL)1465412260141
+100 Mastery rating102349036102

Weighted averages:

ScenarioIntellectHaste rating(naive)Haste rating (+Daybreak)Crit ratingCrit rating (+IoL)Mastery rating
Single: Heavy15212212110710774
Single: Moderate1419910410210271
Multi131133123929262


Setup: Full ivl 359 (focus on crit, not a real gear set)

5045 intellect
1954 spellpower on items
1558 crit rating
904 haste rating
90 mastery rating

Increase to heal values, in HPS:

Stat+FoL+HL+DL+HS+WoG
+100 Intellect2247117678184
+100 Haste rating (naive)27110822000
+100 Haste rating (including Daybreak)232921893655
+100 Crit rating1435312059139
+100 Crit rating (factoring IoL)1435312059139
+100 Mastery rating104349237104

Weighted averages:

ScenarioIntellectHaste rating(naive)Haste rating (+Daybreak)Crit ratingCrit rating (+IoL)Mastery rating
Single: Heavy15112512510510576
Single: Moderate14010110810010073
Multi130136127909064

Setup: Diamondtear (High-end)

5462 intellect
2207 spellpower on items
482 crit rating
1796 haste rating
259 mastery rating

Increase to heal values, in HPS:

Stat+FoL+HL+DL+HS+WoG
+100 Intellect2347418577180
+100 Haste rating (naive)27410822300
+100 Haste rating (including Daybreak)232911883553
+100 Crit rating1595913361144
+100 Crit rating (factoring IoL)1595913361144
+100 Mastery rating1133710038106

Weighted averages:

ScenarioIntellectHaste rating(naive)Haste rating (+Daybreak)Crit ratingCrit rating (+IoL)Mastery rating
Single: Heavy15512612411411480
Single: Moderate14210210710810877
Multi134137126989868

EDIT: The haste estimate is incorrect, I'll try to fix that soon.

Last edited by elvez : 01/17/11 at 10:10 AM.

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Old 01/15/11, 12:31 PM   #286
DiamondTear
Don Flamenco
 
DiamondTear's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Lightning's Blade (EU)
Originally Posted by Noules View Post
Well, I'm certainly not advocating using more HR with 4T11 simply in an attempt to regain mana. But if the encounter benefits from that level of HR usage, 4T11 looks pretty attractive. Viewing 4T11 as a mana cost reduction on HR is a valid interpretation, but it's not the only or necessarily the most useful one. The primary issue at hand is whether or not the gear set up is better than the alternative; in order to do that, we need to be able to formulate some comparison with the alternatives. The method I am proposing is to calculate the equivalent value of the set bonus in terms of spirit on gear, for a given uptime on HR, without suggesting that it's necessary to change the usage of HR.
You should remember that it should be significantly easier to get off-set pieces than tier pieces, especially when it come to ilvl 372. I wouldn't take tier items (or pay a lot of VP, which can be turned into gold) for a set that might be better on some encounters.

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Old 01/15/11, 4:38 PM   #287
Nodrak
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Human Paladin
 
Khaz Modan
Eternal Glory
The back to back procs were changed by blizzard shortly after release IIRC. I can go dig up the blue post later if you want. The wording implied to me that you can never use the HP from a proc to get another proc, which implies that a 2pt proc, followed by another gain of some kind (DL with ToR delay) would allow a 2pt -> 3pt -> 3pt chain, but would need testing.

Seems like it's off by a factor of 100. Maybe the OP means 1 spirit provides this formula's worth in mp5, not 100 spirit.
Correct, this would be my mistake... I went back on forth on whether or not to even put those in the post like they are, and I guess I was not very thorough. I am thinking of changing the way the post is setup when the ptr patch goes live, since it will need some changing then anyways. Thanks for verifying, it was also listed as OOC regen when it was the formula for IC regen, also the one under Int was not taking plate spec and Kings into account.


@elvez

Thank you for putting so much work into all that, it really does a good job of showing a few important things. Still there appears to be a few minor things that need changing.

Heal * Beacon + Heal * (Mastery%/100) + PotI
Should be:
(Heal + PotI) * Beacon + Heal * (Mastery%/100)
Also don't forget that PotI is cast on self, and thus gets double benefit from Divinity, which is not transferred through the beacon, so really it should be:
(Heal + PotI) * Beacon + Heal * (Mastery%/100) + PotI * 0.06
Unless you want to do your formula another way.

WoG = 6399 + SP * 0.627 + AP * 0.2175
The SP one is a 3pt, and AP is a 1pt, needs to be 0.209/0.217 or 0.627/0.651, using rough numbers, also the Glyph should effect both Coefficients as well as the base value.

Is your IoL generating the proper 1.5/(1+Haste) GCD when it gets used? It doesn't appear to be currently.

heals = (6 - 1.5 - 0.5 - IoL_cast) / heal_cast
This is not really correct, but the method you are using cannot really avoid it. Restricting yourself to the HS cooldown is a loss in all situations that I found in my spreadsheet, and will cause issues evaluating haste. Putting in a 1/3 GCD each time for WoG is troublesome too, since it will delay 3 HS instead of 1. HS is about 75% of a HL, so if you can fit Half a HL in before the HS cooldown, its worth it (ignoring other factors).

My sheet came up with a series of 'rotations', which were arbitrary and could probably be improved with a better ordering. HL=DL for simplicity.

HS-> 3HL -> HS -> 3HL -> HS -> 2HL -> HPdump = 3HS:8HL At higher haste turns into 3HS:9HL

While this pushes back the Holy Shocks under most haste values, it is also better HPS then 3HS:6HL, which has slightly higher HPM due to holy power. As haste increases, you add more HL/DL in unless HS becomes a null factor and is skipped, which only occurs under DL or higher levels of output at >40% haste.

I am also not sure if I agree with ranking the stats on heal value added, when using a collage of spells with differing cast times. It should be Heal / Time in this case, since Mana is not a factor.

Using the 359 Focus on Haste:
Total Haste: ~35.41%

+Heal
Stat +FoL +HL +DL +HS +WoG
+100 Intellect 258 137 340 114 268
+100 Haste rating (naive) 392 259 534 0 0
+100 Haste rating (including Daybreak) 287 189 391 52 78
+100 Crit rating 169 105 237 87 196
+100 Crit rating (factoring IoL) 169 105 237 87 196
+100 Mastery rating 121 67 178 54 143

+HPS
Stat +FoL +HL +DL +HS +WoG
+100 Intellect 233 74 184 103 242
+100 Haste rating (naive) 354 160 289 0 0
+100 Haste rating (including Daybreak) 259 102 212 47 70
+100 Crit rating 152 57 128 79 177
+100 Crit rating (factoring IoL) 152 57 128 79 177
+100 Mastery rating 109 36 96 54 129

This would make the weighted values have more meaning, which I would also change. It would also allow haste to effect the HPS value like it should.

Last edited by Nodrak : 01/15/11 at 5:49 PM.

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Old 01/15/11, 4:55 PM   #288
Noules
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Onyxia
Originally Posted by DiamondTear View Post
You should remember that it should be significantly easier to get off-set pieces than tier pieces, especially when it come to ilvl 372. I wouldn't take tier items (or pay a lot of VP, which can be turned into gold) for a set that might be better on some encounters.
While I generally agree with these sentiments, I don't think they're directly relevant to the issue (or what I believe is the issue) which is namely, 'When is 4T11 better than the alternative?' My point is that there is a level of usage of HR where the 4T11 is better than the off-set pieces. My argument is that using HR every 40s seems like a clear win for 4T11 (and the break-even point somewhere higher than 40s). The missing piece here is whether or not that level of HR usage is typical/relevant for the more challenging encounters.

It's possible that simple unavailability, or preference in spending VP elsewhere might render the calculation mostly moot, but I have no real way to model that, nor the valuation of gold vs. valor points spent towards (possibly alternative) gearing. Those seem like meta-arguments outside of the scope of the original issue.

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Old 01/15/11, 5:04 PM   #289
Nodrak
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Khaz Modan
Originally Posted by Noules View Post
While I generally agree with these sentiments, I don't think they're directly relevant to the issue (or what I believe is the issue) which is namely, 'When is 4T11 better than the alternative?' My point is that there is a level of usage of HR where the 4T11 is better than the off-set pieces. My argument is that using HR every 40s seems like a clear win for 4T11 (and the break-even point somewhere higher than 40s). The missing piece here is whether or not that level of HR usage is typical/relevant for the more challenging encounters.

It's possible that simple unavailability, or preference in spending VP elsewhere might render the calculation mostly moot, but I have no real way to model that, nor the valuation of gold vs. valor points spent towards (possibly alternative) gearing. Those seem like meta-arguments outside of the scope of the original issue.
Given that the largest reason for getting the set is the 4 piece, and that the competition stat, mainly haste, achieves the same effect on Holy Radiance, but also increases the HPS:

Originally Posted by EZDeornoth View Post
summary Loose SET Difference Total
spirit 35 60 25  
haste 733 0 -733  
crit 0 540 540  
mastery 149 317 168  
    
SOCKETS     
int 110 170 60 60
spirit 80 20 -60 -35
haste 60 40 -20 -753
crit 0 10 10 550
mastery 0 10 10 178
The ~5.88% haste is not enough to outweigh the combination of the Crit, Int, and 4Set Bonus, in terms of efficiency. In terms of maximum output, the haste set wins by far. Given that Holy Radiance is already very efficient, and that the primary 'secret bonus' of the set was Mana Tide, which is being altered, I am not in much hurry to get the set either way. I don't believe these numbers have reforging counted, so that will benefit the Tier set. The mana cost of HR can be considered trivial. 40%/30s compared to 9%/2.5s for Holy Light.

Last edited by Nodrak : 01/15/11 at 5:36 PM.

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Old 01/15/11, 5:36 PM   #290
Nycgangsta
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Smolderthorn
Today I was looking around different sites and found a post talking about Conviction being bugged. I decided to test this.

I did not take screenshots or a video, however, it would not be hard to test for yourself. As of now, Conviction is only giving 3% increased healing to yourself per stack (at 3/3), not the 3% increased healing by you per stack that the tooltip says. I'd imagine it will be hot-fixed but as of now it seems like a waste of 3 talent points.

For those interested, testing was done by speccing out of Divinity, casting Holy Radiance with a helper right under me, and observing how much it healed both of us with 3 stacks of Conviction and without any stacks of conviction. The healing done to him was constant as stacks of Conviction increased, however, the Holy Radiance did heal myself for more as the stacks increased.

Edit: What I said may have been misleading, I'll quote myself. "Conviction is only giving 3% increased healing to yourself per stack (at 3/3)". I did not test this with another person healing me as I stacked Conviction. It may also increase healing done by other people to you, too, but to me that doesn't seem likely.

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Old 01/15/11, 6:15 PM   #291
Connorus
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Anub'arak (EU)
Originally Posted by Nycgangsta View Post
It may also increase healing done by other people to you, too, but to me that doesn't seem likely.
Can't test it right now, but according to Wowhead it does:

Effect #1 Apply Aura: Mod Damage Done % (3)
Value: 3
Effect #2 Apply Aura: Mod Healing Taken - % (127)
Value: 3

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Old 01/16/11, 7:11 AM   #292
Shockadin
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Mal'Ganis (EU)
According to Wowhead EG really seems to have an 15s ICD.

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Old 01/16/11, 9:05 AM   #293
elvez
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Stormrage (EU)
Originally Posted by Nodrak View Post
Eternal Glory
@elvez

Thank you for putting so much work into all that, it really does a good job of showing a few important things. Still there appears to be a few minor things that need changing.

Heal * Beacon + Heal * (Mastery%/100) + PotI
Should be:
(Heal + PotI) * Beacon + Heal * (Mastery%/100)
Also don't forget that PotI is cast on self, and thus gets double benefit from Divinity, which is not transferred through the beacon, so really it should be:
(Heal + PotI) * Beacon + Heal * (Mastery%/100) + PotI * 0.06
Unless you want to do your formula another way.
The PotI "variable" on that formula was the value calculated just before, which already factored in the beacon and critical strike chance. I'll edit the post to make it more clear, though. About Divinity, yeah I forgot about that. From your formula it looks like it stacks additively so when healing on self it gives +12%, am I right?

WoG = 6399 + SP * 0.627 + AP * 0.2175
The SP one is a 3pt, and AP is a 1pt, needs to be 0.209/0.217 or 0.627/0.651, using rough numbers, also the Glyph should effect both Coefficients as well as the base value.
That was another mistake, thanks for pointing that out.

Is your IoL generating the proper 1.5/(1+Haste) GCD when it gets used? It doesn't appear to be currently.
What effect does IoL have on GCDs? I must've missed something again in your OP, because the talent tooltip only refers to casting time.

heals = (6 - 1.5 - 0.5 - IoL_cast) / heal_cast
This is not really correct, but the method you are using cannot really avoid it. Restricting yourself to the HS cooldown is a loss in all situations that I found in my spreadsheet, and will cause issues evaluating haste. Putting in a 1/3 GCD each time for WoG is troublesome too, since it will delay 3 HS instead of 1. HS is about 75% of a HL, so if you can fit Half a HL in before the HS cooldown, its worth it (ignoring other factors).

My sheet came up with a series of 'rotations', which were arbitrary and could probably be improved with a better ordering. HL=DL for simplicity.

HS-> 3HL -> HS -> 3HL -> HS -> 2HL -> HPdump = 3HS:8HL At higher haste turns into 3HS:9HL

While this pushes back the Holy Shocks under most haste values, it is also better HPS then 3HS:6HL, which has slightly higher HPM due to holy power. As haste increases, you add more HL/DL in unless HS becomes a null factor and is skipped, which only occurs under DL or higher levels of output at >40% haste.
I thought about modeling a more realistic rotation, but it was going to become complicated. Anyway I'm not delaying anything, I'm just "splitting" casts while forcing HS use on cooldown, which I guess is inefficient in term of HPS. But I think the fact that I never waste time by allowing partial casts may compensates for that.

I am also not sure if I agree with ranking the stats on heal value added, when using a collage of spells with differing cast times. It should be Heal / Time in this case, since Mana is not a factor.
This would make the weighted values have more meaning, which I would also change. It would also allow haste to effect the HPS value like it should.
Yeah, that's true, it's pretty much pointless now that I think better about that. It isn't hard to update my formulas to use HPS instead of raw increases, and that's what I'm doing right now.

EDIT: Post updated with HPS values. They don't seem to agree with yours though, as I don't get 35.41% buffed haste from the haste focused setup, only 17.53%.

Last edited by elvez : 01/16/11 at 10:11 AM.

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Old 01/16/11, 11:03 AM   #294
• malthrin
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Osseric
Blood Elf Paladin
 
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Originally Posted by Artius89 View Post
I just ticketed for this issue and the answer from the gm was pretty fast, according to the response it's not working as intended (link for the screen below):

http://i.imgur.com/dwBUH.jpg
Originally Posted by Cobblers View Post
Hmm, well my GM would beg to differ:

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

Apparently working as intended.

Either way, I've respec'd until they sort it.
In the future, don't bother posting screenshots of GM conversations. GMs don't have any way of knowing what the developer intent is on a particular bug; they're more likely to confuse the issue than resolve it.

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Old 01/17/11, 5:25 AM   #295
Evarella
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
The Maelstrom (EU)
Originally Posted by elvez View Post
@Evarella: Are the values for Intellect and Spirit in your graph buffed or unbuffed?
Also, what has been said about the beacon could be said about PotI (it's getting nerfed though), am I right? Given it appears to have a very low spellpower coefficient...
Or did you already include that into your calculations?
The int and spirit values are buffed, after modifiers have been applied (e.g. +5% from BoK). I.e. the values you would see in your char sheet at the start of the fight. Although to be precise, the resulting lines (where 1 int and 1 spirit provide the same healing per fight benefit) are for 1 unbuffed int or spirit - i.e. the numbers you see on the gear, not how much they changed your buffed stats by). Which might seem peverse to some, but was more intuitive to me since what I'm looking at in game are my current buffed stats and the stats on a new piece of gear, typically.

Plus using the buffed stats makes it more general - people can factor in whatever buffs they think they are likely to have and work out their typical raid stats from that, rather than hoping that I've done calculations using the same set of buffs that they actually use.

I didn't include PotI since I figured it'd be getting too much into situational assumptions about how often that healing was actually useful (mostly by producing overhealing on yourself). It would produce some change though, unlike beacon of light. I've clarified my thinking on the subject, and it isn't actually about the base vs spellpower portion of the heal. Basically, if an 'average' spell heals for (Base + Spellpower x Coefficient), then there is a term in the int vs spirit equation that is proportional to:

Coefficient / (Base + Spellpower x Coefficient)

In the case of beacon of light, it effectively multiplies Base and Coefficient by 1.5 each (when healing someone other than the beacon), and in this term those 1.5s cancel out exactly producing no change whatsoever. Coincidentally, it also explains why spell choice was having next to no effect: Holy Shock, Holy Light and Divine Light (and Word of Glory, for what it's worth) all have virtually identical Base/Coefficient ratios, so varying the mix of those spells has no effect on the int vs spirit balance. So it only really depends on the fraction of casts that are FoL (or HR, but that's on 30 second cooldown and so doesn't factor in so much). And I personally very rarely cast FoL.

PotI has a very different Base/Coefficient ratio however, so would actually produce a change if plugged in, so I'll look in to how much of a change it would make (depending on amount of wasted healing produced by it).

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Old 01/17/11, 7:49 AM   #296
malakar
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Kazzak (EU)
Crusader generating HoPo

On the above topic: it seems pretty situational, but on some fights i got pretty surprised how well it worked. Depending on your raid composition, your healing role etc LoD might come up to 30% of your healing, considering this is the smartest way to use the HoPo generated via CS. As I am not really in maths I will provide a log from our Nefarian wipes last night. I was on Ony tank duties.

WorldOfLogs-Nefarian-Report

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Old 01/17/11, 8:13 AM   #297
Nodrak
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Khaz Modan
Originally Posted by elvez View Post
The PotI "variable" on that formula was the value calculated just before, which already factored in the beacon and critical strike chance. I'll edit the post to make it more clear, though. About Divinity, yeah I forgot about that. From your formula it looks like it stacks additively so when healing on self it gives +12%, am I right?


That was another mistake, thanks for pointing that out.


What effect does IoL have on GCDs? I must've missed something again in your OP, because the talent tooltip only refers to casting time.


I thought about modeling a more realistic rotation, but it was going to become complicated. Anyway I'm not delaying anything, I'm just "splitting" casts while forcing HS use on cooldown, which I guess is inefficient in term of HPS. But I think the fact that I never waste time by allowing partial casts may compensates for that.


Yeah, that's true, it's pretty much pointless now that I think better about that. It isn't hard to update my formulas to use HPS instead of raw increases, and that's what I'm doing right now.

EDIT: Post updated with HPS values. They don't seem to agree with yours though, as I don't get 35.41% buffed haste from the haste focused setup, only 17.53%.
Sorry, it was a bit confusing there. To my knowledge the Divinity is multiplicative, so [PotI * 1.06] * 1.06 for the heal on yourself, with the Beacon getting Poti * 1.06. It is just the aspect of beacon that transfers the healing before target based modifiers.

IoL will reduce the cast time of HL/DL below that of the global cooldown. While this has no effect on instantaneous HPS, it does effect the sustained casting picture. The time taken by an IoL cast is under 1 second, but you cannot start a new spell until 1.5/(1+Haste) later, which is always greater then an IoL cast, which results in all IoL casts being restricted by your haste value. If you don't have this GCD in the factor, you will get more casts then you should, and haste will have a lessened effect compared to what actually happens.

For your Haste set with 1904 haste rating:
1904/128.057 = 14.87%
1.1487 * 1.09 * 1.03 * 1.05 = 1.3541 or 35.41%

I am not really sure how you got 17%, but I tend to always assume all haste buffs since they are common enough. Hope this helps.

@Evarella
If I understand you, those very nice graphs will shift in favor of Int when you consider Kings and Plate spec? I might be misunderstanding what you meant by unbuffed though. Thanks again for those charts, I might have to end up consolidating some of this great stuff into the OP, with everyone's permission of course.

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Old 01/17/11, 9:32 AM   #298
elvez
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Stormrage (EU)
Originally Posted by Evarella View Post
I didn't include PotI since I figured it'd be getting too much into situational assumptions about how often that healing was actually useful (mostly by producing overhealing on yourself). It would produce some change though, unlike beacon of light. I've clarified my thinking on the subject, and it isn't actually about the base vs spellpower portion of the heal. Basically, if an 'average' spell heals for (Base + Spellpower x Coefficient), then there is a term in the int vs spirit equation that is proportional to:

Coefficient / (Base + Spellpower x Coefficient)

....

PotI has a very different Base/Coefficient ratio however, so would actually produce a change if plugged in, so I'll look in to how much of a change it would make (depending on amount of wasted healing produced by it).
I was more interested in the PotI component that heals the beacon, as it's basically a free heal on the beacon-ed target for each healing spell that is cast. And given the low spellpower coefficient of PotI, it may be another factor in making spirit more valuable than intellect in some situations.
I agree with you in using buffed values for evaluating the values of stat, but using raw values for comparison, as we're mostly interested in comparing the stats on the available gear.

Originally Posted by Nodrak View Post
Sorry, it was a bit confusing there. To my knowledge the Divinity is multiplicative, so [PotI * 1.06] * 1.06 for the heal on yourself, with the Beacon getting Poti * 1.06. It is just the aspect of beacon that transfers the healing before target based modifiers.
Ok, thanks for the clarification.
IoL will reduce the cast time of HL/DL below that of the global cooldown. While this has no effect on instantaneous HPS, it does effect the sustained casting picture. The time taken by an IoL cast is under 1 second, but you cannot start a new spell until 1.5/(1+Haste) later, which is always greater then an IoL cast, which results in all IoL casts being restricted by your haste value. If you don't have this GCD in the factor, you will get more casts then you should, and haste will have a lessened effect compared to what actually happens.
Now I see what you was trying to tell me. Indeed, the effective cast time of a spell can never go below (1.5 / (1 + Haste)) seconds, even if IoL procs. To be honest I wasn't aware of that, but now that I've read about that, even if hasted, the GCD can never go below 1 second, right?

For your Haste set with 1904 haste rating:
1904/128.057 = 14.87%
1.1487 * 1.09 * 1.03 * 1.05 = 1.3541 or 35.41%

I am not really sure how you got 17%, but I tend to always assume all haste buffs since they are common enough. Hope this helps.
My bad again, for some reason I was using:

1 + (0.1487 * 1.09 * 1.03 * 1.05) = 1.1753

I fixed my post again, but introducing hasted GCDs made the HPS increases from haste skyrocket. There must be something wrong with my calculations, so for now the values on my post are with a fixed 1.5s GCD.
Please bear with me while I try to find what's wrong...

Last edited by elvez : 01/17/11 at 10:13 AM.

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Old 01/17/11, 2:40 PM   #299
tuccoyote265
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Winterhoof
Originally Posted by sheaebay View Post
Are you 100% certain of this? Since the Cataclysm release the Holy power I've gained from Eternal Glory has NEVER procced again after using another word of glory. I'm reading several reports of people saying they have had 5 or 6 back to back procs.. I don't want to call them liars but I guess I am I guess I'm one of those. "I need to see it to believe it people."
While I guess I'm just another person giving an offhand report, I have had Eternal Glory proc multiple times in a row. The most I have had it proc is twice since Cata came out, meaning I did a 3-stack WoG then EG proc'd and I did another WoG, then EG proc'd again and I did another WoG that consumed my Holy Power. Of course there is no way to prove that since you can't really screenshot something like that unless you're running a combat log, but I swear it happened. As for the ICD of EG, I have done this back to back (i.e. as soon as the GCD finished).

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Old 01/17/11, 4:39 PM   #300
Evarella
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
The Maelstrom (EU)
Originally Posted by tuccoyote265 View Post
While I guess I'm just another person giving an offhand report, I have had Eternal Glory proc multiple times in a row. The most I have had it proc is twice since Cata came out, meaning I did a 3-stack WoG then EG proc'd and I did another WoG, then EG proc'd again and I did another WoG that consumed my Holy Power. Of course there is no way to prove that since you can't really screenshot something like that unless you're running a combat log, but I swear it happened. As for the ICD of EG, I have done this back to back (i.e. as soon as the GCD finished).
Since it (anecdotally) is possible to have 3 HP, get a EG proc, holy shock / CS hit for a 'wasted' HP and have EG proc again, I wonder if it is also possible to have gained an invisible holy power from blessed life via being hit, thus allowing you to proc EG again.

A combination of mixing in CS, HS and BL procs might invisibly be gaining holy power and allowing what appear to be multiple EG procs in a row.

Just a theory.

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