[Holy]Cataclysm Holy Compendium (4.0.6) - Page 14

TheEnder · 01/05/11, 3:19 PM

Originally Posted by Stodragon

I'm pretty sure Shard will be BiS. No one has had the chance to test it out though.

Shard will arguably provide the most mana "return" as possible since it will save 405 mana per cast. The only problem I see here is that 405 mana, in reality, doesn't seem to be that great of a save.

Based on % of mana saved, this is an especially useful trinket for HL spam... it would save the most mana based on % of spell cost. But we can already spam HL and HS nearly indefinately. So there is no gain to using this trinket for the mana save for HL spam. If you spam FoL or DL... yes, it will save you mana, but you'll still run out fairly quickly. Saving 405 mana on a 6k cast will net you one extra cast every 15, roughly. The issue is compounded even more when you factor in the number of mana-free heals we cast in a given raid. Yes this will save mana on everything we do... but I just don't know if it's worth it since the only time I have found myself with mana issues are in fights where other healers die and on Chimaeron... where we have to spam FoL.

Now I don't have experience with heroic encounters; but I figure that if you have the gear and the healers to kill Sinestra and get shard... you don't need the extra mana efficiency. That could change in the next tier but I would prefer a throughput trinket with int... if it were just the mana save.

The biggest usage for this trinket for a Holy Paly, that I see, is the 1 min on use for HR. That's an absurd amount of haste on a low CD. It's perfect for on-demand AOE and is incredibly potent with it's CD.

I see all this argument about Shard being a BiS trinket... I see it as mostly a situational trinket for us. An int trinket or a spirit trinket (if you have access to MTT) would be far more useful and would be more efficient for mana as well.

Lovella · 01/05/11, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by Ezy

Has anyone done the math on how viable Shard of Woe will be?

Correct me if i'm wrong but overall viability on Shard of Woe seems very simple: Divide mana saved from trinket by overall amount of mana you would have had used anyway to to get percentage efficiency.

You could look at increase of efficiency from each individual spell but I think it's far better to do an overall calculation of efficiency because that takes into account differing play style and spell usage.

Nitz · 01/05/11, 7:28 PM

Originally Posted by TheEnder

The only problem I see here is that 405 mana, in reality, doesn't seem to be that great of a save.

Provided you are only chain-casting Holy Light at 2.5 sec with 0 haste, this trinket grants at least 800 mp5. This trinket is a BiS for every healer out there, and the use is ridiculously good for a paladin as you said it. The problem is that it is most likely a BiS for every DPS caster too.

Malleus · 01/05/11, 8:04 PM

Originally Posted by Sparty

If you are concerned about mana, you should be using Insightful Earthsiege.

The increased combat regen, Replenishment and initial mana from Ember Shadowspirit easily match the proc from IED. If at any point you are going to get a Mana Tide Totem or Innervate, or even a chance to use Plea, IED is blown out of the water.

amnerys · 01/05/11, 9:14 PM

Originally Posted by Malleus

The increased combat regen, Replenishment and initial mana from Ember Shadowspirit easily match the proc from IED. If at any point you are going to get a Mana Tide Totem or Innervate, or even a chance to use Plea, IED is blown out of the water.

What math are you using to generate this conclusion? IED is a best-case scenario of 70 mp5, but realistically in a raid with pauses, and non-chain-casting, I can estimate it at maybe 40-45-ish mp5 for me personally based on logs.

Ignoring Mana Tide (as it is only affected by the 54 int over the 21 int of IED, and I honestly don't see the extra int increasing the spirit regen by a significant number), and Innervate (based on the druid's mana, so unaffected by whichever meta we choose), to gain 45 mp5 from replenishment and divine plea + LoH (assuming a 5-minute fight), we'd need 3500 extra mana - which requires a 175k mana pool. I personally have not reached that point yet, and from a pure regen point of view, the insightful earthsiege diamond is still the way to go in lower tiers of gear in my opinion.

Evarella · 01/06/11, 3:44 AM

Originally Posted by amnerys

What math are you using to generate this conclusion? IED is a best-case scenario of 70 mp5, but realistically in a raid with pauses, and non-chain-casting, I can estimate it at maybe 40-45-ish mp5 for me personally based on logs.

Ignoring Mana Tide (as it is only affected by the 54 int over the 21 int of IED, and I honestly don't see the extra int increasing the spirit regen by a significant number), and Innervate (based on the druid's mana, so unaffected by whichever meta we choose), to gain 45 mp5 from replenishment and divine plea + LoH (assuming a 5-minute fight), we'd need 3500 extra mana - which requires a 175k mana pool. I personally have not reached that point yet, and from a pure regen point of view, the insightful earthsiege diamond is still the way to go in lower tiers of gear in my opinion.

Well, based on reference stats of 4000 int and 2000 spirit (about the values you'd have self-buffed in heroic gear, for reference):

You have +33 int from ember shadowspirit diamond over insightful earthspirit diamond. And the +2% total mana. That gives you:

+4.3 mp5 from increased combat regen
546 more mana from the extra int
circa 1770 mana from the +2%
that extra mana gives 11.6 mp5 from replenishment

For a 5 minute fight, the extra mana (1770+546 = 2316) is equivalent to 38.6 mp5.

Add all those up and you get 54.5 mp5 ignoring divine plea. Plus the extra benefits of the +33 relative int to crit chance and spellpower. Based on the above stats and a 5 minute fight.

Obviously the mana tide totem with it's +350% spirit will multiply the combat regen by 4.5, adding an extra 15 mp5 on top of the above (that gets you up to 70 mp5 plus small amounts of crit and spellpower).

I'd say that puts the ESD ahead of the IED.

v0id · 01/06/11, 4:51 AM

Originally Posted by elvez

But if you say I didn't make major errors when comparing the value of Crit or Mastery with the other stats, does this mean I shouldn't ever upgrade a heroic dungeon drop with an epic if the epic will make me lose a lot of haste?
It sounds a bit ridiculous to me when half of raid drops and the tier pieces don't have haste, and reforging isn't going to make up for the loss of haste when "upgrading"...

This actually is what I wondered for a long time. We all know that T11's 2Mastery+3Crit so a 4piece instead of raid-drop means a heavy, heavy loss in the haste even after reforge. Is that HL Crit and Spirit bonus efficient enough for us to choose tier set instead of just picking up every single haste-plate?

Originally Posted by Lovella

Correct me if i'm wrong but overall viability on Shard of Woe seems very simple: Divide mana saved from trinket by overall amount of mana you would have had used anyway to to get percentage efficiency.

You could look at increase of efficiency from each individual spell but I think it's far better to do an overall calculation of efficiency because that takes into account differing play style and spell usage.

I'm thinking about ShoW in an even more simpler way. If you are going to cast an average of 2 spells (ANY spell excludes LoD/WoG) per 5 second in a given encounter, ShoW equals to 810mp5. If you are going to cast 4 in some extreme situation, then its 1620mp5. That number's quite simply unbeatable and it, I'd suspect, will take up a BiS slot for a long time to come.

Nodrak · 01/06/11, 9:21 AM

Originally Posted by Evarella

Well, based on reference stats of 4000 int and 2000 spirit (about the values you'd have self-buffed in heroic gear, for reference):

You have +33 int from ember shadowspirit diamond over insightful earthspirit diamond. And the +2% total mana. That gives you:

+4.3 mp5 from increased combat regen
546 more mana from the extra int
circa 1770 mana from the +2%
that extra mana gives 11.6 mp5 from replenishment

For a 5 minute fight, the extra mana (1770+546 = 2316) is equivalent to 38.6 mp5.

Add all those up and you get 54.5 mp5 ignoring divine plea. Plus the extra benefits of the +33 relative int to crit chance and spellpower. Based on the above stats and a 5 minute fight.

Obviously the mana tide totem with it's +350% spirit will multiply the combat regen by 4.5, adding an extra 15 mp5 on top of the above (that gets you up to 70 mp5 plus small amounts of crit and spellpower).

I'd say that puts the ESD ahead of the IED.

Aside from long fights where the mana proc will start to outweigh the initial mana, there is one important consideration. If PotI can proc the meta, it dramatically increases the Mp5 from it. At an average cast of 2s, we get about 64 mp5 from the meta, but if PotI procs it, this becomes an effective 1s cast, resulting in about 107 Mp5 from the proc.

Terlig · 01/06/11, 11:40 AM

Divine Plea now gives you 12% of your total mana over 9 sec, up from 10% of your total mana over 15 sec.

From MMO. Looks like we're able to use it more often and get more mana. On some encounters i was letting DP ticking only for few seconds, so with this change our rengen CD will be slightly better (and safer).

TheEnder · 01/06/11, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Terlig

From MMO. Looks like we're able to use it more often and get more mana. On some encounters i was letting DP ticking only for few seconds, so with this change our rengen CD will be slightly better (and safer).

It's rather disheartening that they're looking at the ability and are actively changing it to fix a problem... yet they are not adjusting the MS component at all.

The MS component was an artifact of a different time for WoW. It was put in to stop paladins from endlessly healing in Wrath without fear of running out of mana. At the very least; the MS component should be reduced to the value of the other MS effects in game...

nikitabanana · 01/06/11, 12:54 PM

The MS component of plea is negligible. In raiding, it's rarely an issue as you know when heavy damage is coming. Sometimes, you have to plea during it if you're oom and it's better then having nothing - but most of the time you can easily find times to plea.

Our healers use concentration pots a lot. Not a huge deal as they just call it during lulls and we make sure we have enough to support us during that time.

flyingtoastr · 01/06/11, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by TheEnder

It's rather disheartening that they're looking at the ability and are actively changing it to fix a problem... yet they are not adjusting the MS component at all.

The MS component was an artifact of a different time for WoW. It was put in to stop paladins from endlessly healing in Wrath without fear of running out of mana. At the very least; the MS component should be reduced to the value of the other MS effects in game...

I disagree. The MS component is all that separates DP from a simple "use this ability as soon as it comes off cooldown". With the MS there are times when you don't want to use DP, as well as times when it is ideal to do so. Knowing the difference creates a small but applicable skill gradient, and I see that as a good thing.

danau · 01/06/11, 4:39 PM

There are also still a wide variety of offsets you can use for Plea to make it's MS effect negligible (however you then have to deal with not having these abilities in times of heavy damage).

The sole reason I took 2 points in Paragon of Virtue was so that the cooldowns on AW and Plea line up. You also have Divine Favor, though that is sitting at a fixed 3 min cooldown, and GoAK, which 100% negates the MS effect for its duration, though you may want a /cancelaura macro handy for when you've used it up.

There's a significant amount of ways to deal with the MS debuff, be it to use it in combo with one of the above abilities, or in times of ebbing raid damage, which are predictable. If they were to remove the MS debuff you would purely macro Plea in with your strafe keys - frankly (although I don't consider it a difficult decision) I don't want Plea to just be "flat regen". There has to be a downside.

Shakaros · 01/06/11, 4:44 PM

Originally Posted by nikitabanana

The MS component of plea is negligible. In raiding, it's rarely an issue as you know when heavy damage is coming. Sometimes, you have to plea during it if you're oom and it's better then having nothing - but most of the time you can easily find times to plea.

Our healers use concentration pots a lot. Not a huge deal as they just call it during lulls and we make sure we have enough to support us during that time.

The mechanic is workable and I find myself using Plea, however usually not more than once during each fight. That alone does not worry me, but the logic behind the ability does. What other mana regeneration cooldown has such harsh and negative implications of gameplay? What they need to do is recognize that I'm not gonna be healing for those 9 seconds because the returns are too small.

The solution, as I see it, is to scrap the 50% healing penalty, which inarguably is from a time in this games history where overhealing was extremle more common, and make the ability play around a different mechanic. It needs to not limit how I play, but rather encourage me to play smarter and in a more intelligent way. This means implementing a mechanic more in lines with how Rapture works, or possibly tie the divine plea mechanic into our mastery.

The change to 9 seconds might be enough to adress the inherent problems the ability has in a catalcysm (25 man hardmode) healing environment, as it allows for the downtime one inevitably to be less significant. It also needs to otherwise paladin regen will not scale in a meaningful way. Judgement mana is currently the vast majority (60-70%, excluding combat regen) of my mana gains during a fight with divne plea trailing far behind. Judgement regeneration wont become better as gear progresses so we need some other reliable way of keeping up in mana regen with other healers. This DP change was needed, but I hardly think it will be enough to make the ability meaningful again. An overhaul needs to do that.

This is also not a post claiming paladin regen is poor. We are in a very good state right now. The post is merely pointing out some scaling problems I think we will encounter further into cataclysm.

Malleus · 01/06/11, 7:51 PM

Originally Posted by Evarella

Well, based on reference stats of 4000 int and 2000 spirit (about the values you'd have self-buffed in heroic gear, for reference):

You have +33 int from ember shadowspirit diamond over insightful earthspirit diamond. And the +2% total mana. That gives you:

+4.3 mp5 from increased combat regen
546 more mana from the extra int
circa 1770 mana from the +2%
that extra mana gives 11.6 mp5 from replenishment

There's not much point basing calculations on heroic gear with self-buffs; it doesn't accurately reflect raiding. At ilvl 353 with full raid buffs you will have close to 6k Int, 2.2-2.5k Spirit and around a 110k mana pool. This makes the 2% plus Intellect bonus worth 2750 initial mana and 13.75 MP5 from Replenishment, plus 6-7 MP5 from combat regen for a total of roughly 20 MP5 or 240 MP60. Even at its absolute best case scenario of proccing every 45 seconds exactly, IED doesn't break even until 5 minutes into the fight. At a more typical 60 MP5, that is pushed back to nearer 6 minutes. And unlike IED, ESD scales with gear - once you're in full 359 with 3k Spirit and 120k mana you'll get a 3000 mana boost and 300 mana per minute, which puts ESD ahead until the 10-minute mark.

In short: as Amnerys said, IED is a good stopgap choice when you're starting out, but it will be overtaken before the end of this tier.