[Holy]Cataclysm Holy Compendium (4.0.6) - Page 2

RawenDK · 12/15/10, 9:50 PM

Originally Posted by Feya

You can't really prioritize spirit, your gear has it, or doesn't. I didn't have any mana problems last night in 25s that mana cooldown management couldn't handle.

While "mastery sucks" on paper, its an incredibly useful stat to have. I could feel the difference with the shields up, and my meters don't lie. Paladin without them in my group who did within 2% of my healing on Omnitron, effectively healed for about 140k less then I did over the course of the fight. I'm currently running with 16.9 mastery rating.

You can reforge Spirit.

thatbox · 12/15/10, 9:54 PM

Mastery
Mastery has a unique effect per spec, Illuminated Healing produces a shield for a base of 10% on most paladin heals with an additional 1.25% per Mastery, which is not to be confused with Mastery Rating. This shield lasts 8 seconds and is refreshed by smaller shields from mastery, and overwritten by larger ones. If we assume these shields are 100% effective, Mastery will be less output then haste, but significantly more compared to crit. These illuminated healing shield are produced by FoL, HL, DL, HS, WoG, LoD, and Beacon, however Mastery has reduced effect through LoD due to the beacon generating multiple small heals instead of one large one.

Unless I'm mistaken, Beacon cannot produce Illuminated Healing shields.

Sethronu · 12/15/10, 11:22 PM

In my opinion, Crit is extremely underrated right now. It has great synergy with our Mastery unlike Haste, and while it's a slightly weaker throughput stat, it's "free" whereas Haste means higher mana spending. Extra HS crits are also always welcome.

I found Cataclysm healing to be far more reactive - at least in this first tier of raiding - and that really devalues Haste a lot; rarely these 0.1-0.2 seconds off a cast mean life and death anymore, and I don't see myself chaincasting nonstop very often. In periods of intensive healing we have 3 extremely powerful cooldowns to help us get the raid topped off, and since healthpools are so much higher compared to the power of our heals, Crits rarely overheal if you're smart about your targets.

While this might seem like a somewhat controversial approach to Holy Paladin gearing / playstyle, I've been consistently topping healing in our guild and I rarely find myself in a situation where I would think, "if only I had more Haste now...", whereas getting these 45k DL crits & HL crit procs is definitely a welcome boon.

Nodrak · 12/16/10, 1:28 AM

Originally Posted by malthrin

Are those Light of Dawn numbers pre- or post- yesterday's nerf? I'm curious whether they've reduced the base heal from Holy Power, the spellpower coefficient, or both.

Yea those are post nerf numbers, the reduction was 40% by both my estimates, and the blizzard blue post, and it did effect the scaling as well as the base value. It was also confirmed by blues that Protector of the Innocent and LoD giving beacon heals is intended. Interesting...

Originally Posted by thatbox

Unless I'm mistaken, Beacon cannot produce Illuminated Healing shields.

Hmm, you appear to be correct on this. I am certain it was at one point, as I made sure to test that. Will update, and it will have interesting effects on the value of mastery. Thanks!

Also about the Holy Light stuff, I did preface in the Intro that the hotfix released the day of me posting this had changed some of the content of the post and I would have to fix it. I will have to do some updating of my personal spread sheet to see what this effects in the rotations. Still alot to add, so please bear with me.

relaxo · 12/16/10, 6:06 AM

Originally Posted by Sethronu

In my opinion, Crit is extremely underrated right now. It has great synergy with our Mastery unlike Haste, and while it's a slightly weaker throughput stat, it's "free" whereas Haste means higher mana spending. Extra HS crits are also always welcome.

I scribbled down some calculations some time ago, and if they were correct, then even if you use spirit to compensate the mana loss of haste, and now spend the item budget of spirit on crit, you won't make up for the loss of throughput going from haste to crit (by quite a fair amount). Regarding HS you are correct, of course.

Originally Posted by Sethronu

and I don't see myself chaincasting nonstop very often.

Maybe you have too many healers in your raid? The process shouldn't be "heal - don't heal - heal", but "high hps + low hpm - low hps + high hpm - high hps + low hpm"

Originally Posted by Sethronu

While this might seem like a somewhat controversial approach to Holy Paladin gearing / playstyle, I've been consistently topping healing in our guild and I rarely find myself in a situation where I would think, "if only I had more Haste now...", whereas getting these 45k DL crits & HL crit procs is definitely a welcome boon.

Healing meters are often disguiding, especially if you have too many healers. (Which I don't say you do, but it's possible)

Sethronu · 12/16/10, 7:03 AM

Originally Posted by relaxo

Maybe you have too many healers in your raid? The process shouldn't be "heal - don't heal - heal", but "high hps + low hpm - low hps + high hpm - high hps + low hpm"

We run 5-6 healers in our 25-man, sometimes upping it to 7 when learning a new fight - seems like a pretty standard amount. We usually have 2 Druids in the raid, and always have a Shaman so with some hots + ES on the tank, there's really no need for me to spamcast at it unless there is heavy raid damage going around as well and the hots go off the tank. I'm not saying I just sit around there doing nothing, but like, there are definitely plenty of times when there are breaks in healing - depending on which encounter it is, of course. [/quote]

Originally Posted by relaxo

Healing meters are often disguiding, especially if you have too many healers. (Which I don't say you do, but it's possible)

Having spent majority of tBC and WLK telling everyone how meaningless healing meters are, I know exactly what you mean - but I really don't think that's the case here.

Originally Posted by relaxo

I scribbled down some calculations some time ago, and if they were correct, then even if you use spirit to compensate the mana loss of haste, and now spend the item budget of spirit on crit, you won't make up for the loss of throughput going from haste to crit (by quite a fair amount). Regarding HS you are correct, of course.

Thing is, every single of my items with the exception of the Dragonmaw rep neck has Spirit on it, and I still could use some more regen. My primary spell is most of the time DL, and I use HR extensively; there's just no way I could get more regen now to compensate for more intensive casting unless I started stealing innervates from Druids. I'll obviously switch to more Haste-biased gear at some point - probably around 4p T11 - but for entry level raiding, I feel Crit has been an excellent choice.

At any rate, I don't want to argue that this is the perfect way to go or anything; just putting it out there, as it worked perfectly well for me and I think most people discard Crit as bad far too easily.

relaxo · 12/16/10, 8:06 AM

Well 5-6 Healers are of course not too many. So as long as you're successful with your strategy, as you are, go on. (and report if you get to compare)

Calefax · 12/16/10, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by Hulabaloon

As for the stat priority, Mastery sucks. On paper haste is better than mastery in pure HPS, so we don't even need to consider the inherent problems with it: Small shields will overwrite large ones and unless tank healing there's no guarantee that the shield will be used = wasted HPS.

The "problems" you list about holy paladin mastery aren't very accurate. Firstly, I was under the distinct impression that smaller shields actually REFRESH the duration of larger shields, NOT overwrite them. If they do overwrite, then you have a point, but I'm fairly certain they don't.

Secondly, I think that in a raid environment you can pretty much guarantee that your shield won't be wasted. I've only seen 4 fights so far in Cataclysm 10/25m, but every single one of them has some form of unavoidable and fairly constant raid damage. I don't see a reason why that trend wouldn't continue.

Nitz · 12/16/10, 2:29 PM

Yes smaller shields do not overwrite bigger ones, they only refresh them.

Case in point:

jmayhall · 12/16/10, 4:06 PM

Originally Posted by tomoman

Given the recent changes that were implemented yesterday, and assuming we come to the conclusion that using Crusader Strike is a viable and efficient way to generate Holy Power, does this make Blessed Life a more attractive talent since we'll possibly be healing in melee range more often and more likely to take some form of damage?

I would agree it's a viable way to generate HP, however, if your reason for generating HP faster is so you can use LoD, you are essentially stacking with the melee to heal. In doing this, you would spend alot of time adjusting your position to use even use LoD. Alot of the time the tanks are in need of constant heals, I just dont see the practical use of CS in raids. You can still cast HL, and by the end of your cast, HS will be off CD, or very close to use.

Hazui · 12/16/10, 4:26 PM

I've got to agree, I'm not sure that tying a GC with CS for holy power is a good use of time. I typically fill in free casts with either holy lights for shields, or just holy light cancel casting. After about two of those, HS is back off CD

Naronas · 12/16/10, 8:37 PM

With the latest ToR change, I feel that 3 points in the spec as part of the core is not the same bang for your buck it used to be. I am running a different 31/3/3 and find it much more mana efficient while giving me high throughput. The core spec is Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft. Also, I think that PoJ should be listed as a possible talent choice. While it is not a direct throughput addition, 15% run speed is still extremely good. The immobilize/fear/stun effect MAY be useful on certain fights as well.

Naronas · 12/16/10, 8:49 PM

While "mastery sucks" on paper, its an incredibly useful stat to have. I could feel the difference with the shields up, and my meters don't lie. Paladin without them in my group who did within 2% of my healing on Omnitron, effectively healed for about 140k less then I did over the course of the fight. I'm currently running with 16.9 mastery rating.

Mastery is still too situational for Holy. On certain fights, or while sticking on a tank, it is going to be much more useful. Also, a fight like Omni where the shield will be absorbed by Acquiring target, or Flamethrower, it is going to shine. On other fights, probably much less. Mastery>Crit any day (Assuming you are maintaining near 100% Conviction uptime), but Haste>Mastery realistically too. More heals in a certain time span, as long as your mana can sustain it, will drastically increase your effective throughput, as well as your ability to save the guy who is about to die.

iatnuolas · 12/16/10, 9:20 PM

Originally Posted by Naronas

With the latest ToR change, I feel that 3 points in the spec as part of the core is not the same bang for your buck it used to be. I am running a different 31/3/3 and find it much more mana efficient while giving me high throughput. The core spec is Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.

Unless I'm missing something, how are you finding it more mana efficient to have only one/two "dependable" sources of Holy Power (from Holy Shock, and Crusader Strike if you count it)? Wouldn't it be more efficient to have a 100% chance to generate a charge of Holy Power when you Divine Light or Flash of Light?

It seems to me that if you have 3 points in ToR, you're essentially gaining a 2.5k HP heal (with no spell power) per cast of DL/FoL on your Beacon target, but when you have one point, you only have a 33% chance to gain that 2.5k HP heal, which, in the long run, turns out only being worth 742 HP per DL/FoL.

aggixx · 12/16/10, 9:55 PM

Originally Posted by iatnuolas

Unless I'm missing something, how are you finding it more mana efficient to have only one/two "dependable" sources of Holy Power (from Holy Shock, and Crusader Strike if you count it)? Wouldn't it be more efficient to have a 100% chance to generate a charge of Holy Power when you Divine Light or Flash of Light?

It seems to me that if you have 3 points in ToR, you're essentially gaining a 2.5k HP heal (with no spell power) per cast of DL/FoL on your Beacon target, but when you have one point, you only have a 33% chance to gain that 2.5k HP heal, which, in the long run, turns out only being worth 742 HP per DL/FoL.

Seems to me like his argument is that you rarely heal the beaconed target in a raid environment. With the 5 fights I've seen I'd have to tend to agree with this (10 man), and I'd imagine this even more so in a 25 man environment.
Obviously this would vary on a fight per fight basis though.

Although I think I'll be keeping 3/3 ToR simply because it's very useful in heroics and I don't want to have to switch my spec around everytime I do a heroic or raid (but that's a bit off-topic).