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Old 02/02/11, 2:39 AM   #361
Takka
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Korgath
Does HoS continue the 30% dmg reduction if I am dead? I am thinking Chimaeron, where I would pop it on the tank right before the burn phase starts. Having the tank alive longer makes more sense to me than having my dps.

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Old 02/02/11, 4:31 AM   #362
Havoxwow
Glass Joe
 
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Human Paladin
 
Executus
Originally Posted by Takka View Post
Does HoS continue the 30% dmg reduction if I am dead? I am thinking Chimaeron, where I would pop it on the tank right before the burn phase starts. Having the tank alive longer makes more sense to me than having my dps.
It does not. I generally HoS and Bubble upon starting of Mortality. There is no point in the encounter you are in danger of dying really until the very end, so you shouldn't need it for yourself.

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Old 02/02/11, 4:45 PM   #363
Megacode
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Wyrmrest Accord
Trinket BiS
Trinkets | Best in Slot Holy Paladin Resource

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Old 02/02/11, 7:09 PM   #364
Lightrender
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Ner'zhul
Originally Posted by Megacode View Post
This list puts heroic solace of the fallen above every heroic 5 man trinket and Fall of Mortality over every other 359 trinket. I have a Fall of Mortality and I can guarantee you it's a PoS. If this list is accurate, then I need to re-evaluate everything I know about Holy Paladins. Core of Ripeness and Fall of Mortality have the same intellect and the same spirit bonus, just over different intervals. Core of Ripeness is use for 1926 spirit for 20 seconds every 2 minutes and Fall of Mortality is 1926 every 1:30 for 15 seconds. Both of these have the same uptime from a glance, but I've found that FoM only has a 14% uptime whereas Core of Ripeness will have 16.66% (20 seconds/2 minutes) at minimum if used early on in the fight and then on CD every time. Jar of Ancient Remedies factors out to be upwards of 900 spirit last time I checked, and Tyrande's Favorite Doll is BiS among all 359 trinkets. (4200 mana/60 seconds=350 mana/5 seconds at a .6 spirit->mp5 multiplier=~583 effective spirit).

Tyrande's Favorite Doll: 321 int and 583 spirit
Core of Ripeness: 321 int and 321-385 spirit (at 16.66%-20% uptime, 20% uptime can be achieved by using this trinket early in the encounter as opposed to 2 minutes in)
DMCT: 321 int and 400 spirit
Fall of Mortality: 321 int and 270 spirit (at 14% uptime, which is what I had using this trinket on raid encounters)

I honestly don't see how REGULAR FoM is BiS AMONG 359 trinkets. I don't think that site is accurate in the least. There is math that shows Jar of Ancient Remedies to be equivalent to 900-1000 spirit passive if used on cooldown and is regarded as best in slot by many holy paladins (excluding Tyrande's favorite doll) for ilvl 359 trinkets.

If you just look at 372 trinkets, Shard of Woe is clearly best in slot (assuming 405 mana saved per 2 seconds, the passive equals around 1.8k spirit, not even worrying about the use effect). Shard of Woe and Heroic Jar of Ancient Remedies are *probably* best in slot, since I consider regular Fall of Mortality to be one of the worst epic trinkets and have the math to defend that.

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Old 02/03/11, 1:30 AM   #365
Doovez
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Caelestrasz
Originally Posted by Lightrender View Post
This list puts heroic solace of the fallen above every heroic 5 man trinket and Fall of Mortality over every other 359 trinket. I have a Fall of Mortality and I can guarantee you it's a PoS. If this list is accurate, then I need to re-evaluate everything I know about Holy Paladins. Core of Ripeness and Fall of Mortality have the same intellect and the same spirit bonus, just over different intervals. Core of Ripeness is use for 1926 spirit for 20 seconds every 2 minutes and Fall of Mortality is 1926 every 1:30 for 15 seconds. Both of these have the same uptime from a glance, but I've found that FoM only has a 14% uptime whereas Core of Ripeness will have 16.66% (20 seconds/2 minutes) at minimum if used early on in the fight and then on CD every time. Jar of Ancient Remedies factors out to be upwards of 900 spirit last time I checked, and Tyrande's Favorite Doll is BiS among all 359 trinkets. (4200 mana/60 seconds=350 mana/5 seconds at a .6 spirit->mp5 multiplier=~583 effective spirit).

Tyrande's Favorite Doll: 321 int and 583 spirit
Core of Ripeness: 321 int and 321-385 spirit (at 16.66%-20% uptime, 20% uptime can be achieved by using this trinket early in the encounter as opposed to 2 minutes in)
DMCT: 321 int and 400 spiri
Fall of Mortality: 321 int and 270 spirit (at 14% uptime, which is what I had using this trinket on raid encounters)

I honestly don't see how REGULAR FoM is BiS AMONG 359 trinkets. I don't think that site is accurate in the least. There is math that shows Jar of Ancient Remedies to be equivalent to 900-1000 spirit passive if used on cooldown and is regarded as best in slot by many holy paladins (excluding Tyrande's favorite doll) for ilvl 359 trinkets.

If you just look at 372 trinkets, Shard of Woe is clearly best in slot (assuming 405 mana saved per 2 seconds, the passive equals around 1.8k spirit, not even worrying about the use effect). Shard of Woe and Heroic Jar of Ancient Remedies are *probably* best
in slot, since I consider regular Fall of Mortality to be one of the worst epic trinkets and have the math to defend that.
I don't think that site is necessarily ranking the trinkets it's just listing the available trinkets.

Just because it's higher on the list doesn't mean it's better than the trinket below it. Like all gear people should make their own decisions on what's important to them and their own playstyle and current gear.

Last edited by Doovez : 02/03/11 at 1:37 AM.

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Old 02/03/11, 8:25 AM   #366
Aletheia
Could Never Decide on a Main
 
Goblin Shaman
 
Korgath
Originally Posted by Doovez View Post
I don't think that site is necessarily ranking the trinkets it's just listing the available trinkets.

Just because it's higher on the list doesn't mean it's better than the trinket below it. Like all gear people should make their own decisions on what's important to them and their own playstyle and current gear.
It does appear to rank the trinkets. The left column is ordered by ranking. Quick to point out though, that this list hasn't been worked on since January 17th and is now part of a bigger BiS website.

One item that isn't on the list that I am really intrigued with is the new Alchemy trinket. Being the only current trinket with a gem slot in addition to a secondary stat, I wonder how it stacks up against current BiS trinkets?

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Old 02/03/11, 10:55 AM   #367
Rage1986
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Arathor (EU)
What makes the alch trinket interesting is the +40% effect on mana potions. As MMPotions replenish 10k mana in average, its a 4k increase. The spirit it provides is linear with the fight length, namely ~555 spirit at 1 min. In my limited experience at Cata raids, most boss fights last for 6-7 minutes, which comes down to about 80-90 spirit, assuming you use pots.
Adding the 194 haste is quite nice, but it isn't even near to Tsunami's 400 spirit or the BiS trinkets in my opinion. It's a nice, cheap addition to the mix, nothing more.

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Old 02/03/11, 10:55 AM   #368
Fizzlebeard
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Haomarush (EU)
Originally Posted by Lightrender View Post
Jar of Ancient Remedies factors out to be upwards of 900 spirit last time I checked, and Tyrande's Favorite Doll is BiS among all 359 trinkets. (4200 mana/60 seconds=350 mana/5 seconds at a .6 spirit->mp5 multiplier=~583 effective spirit).
Jar: 6420 mana/120 seconds = 267.5 mana/5 seconds at a .6 spirit -> mp5 mulitplier =~ 160.5 effective spirit from the use. Add the stacking spirit that can only be up 75% of the time if you want to use the use (0,75*515=386.25 spirit) and Jar will give you 492 average effective spirit. If I apply your own Doll math to the Jar, I conclude that you overestimate the Jar by half.

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Old 02/03/11, 1:17 PM   #369
CaseyTheRetard
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Stormreaver
Originally Posted by Lightrender View Post
... at a .6 spirit->mp5 multiplier...

There is math that shows Jar of Ancient Remedies to be equivalent to 900-1000 spirit passive if used on cooldown and is regarded as best in slot by many holy paladins (excluding Tyrande's favorite doll) for ilvl 359 trinkets.
I will use 0.62 mp5/spirit (5500 raid-buffed Intellect) which I think is more realistic at this gear level than 0.6 mp5/spirit (5148 Intellect).

Using Jar every cooldown provides 6420 mana every 120 seconds = 267.5 mp5. The buff effect provides 515 spirit when fully stacked. Assuming it takes 15 seconds to stack, the effective uptime is (120 - 30 - 15/2) / 120 = 68.75%. Altogether that puts the Jar at 267.5/0.62 + 515*68.75% = 785.5 Spirit. Even at 0 second stack time - which is reasonable if you monitor the cooldown and use LoD to instant-stack the buff - it's no more than 817.7 Spirit.

As an aside, using the Jar on cooldown is better than just leaving the stack up. The use effect is equivalent to 267.5/0.62 = 431.5 spirit, so the break even point for using being better is when 515 * uptime >= 515 - 431.5. That requires an uptime of about 16%, which translates into 16% * 5 / 75% = 1.1 stacks on average over the 90 second period during which it is possible to stack the trinket. Realistically, if you are healing frequently enough to keep the buff stack from falling off it is always better to use the trinket on cooldown.

I think the larger question that must be answered to determine the relative worth of a pure regen trinket like Jar is, what does regen really do for us? Assuming that raid geared paladins have enough regen to cast Holy Radiance and Holy Shock on cooldown spamming HL in between, more mana only allows us to (a) upgrade more Holy Lights to Divine Lights, or (b) maintain the same casting strategy with additional haste. A very large portion of our healing (mostly handwaving here until someone does some log analysis) doesn't really scale with regen.

Originally Posted by Fizzlebeard View Post
Jar: 6420 mana/120 seconds = 267.5 mana/5 seconds at a .6 spirit -> mp5 mulitplier =~ 160.5 effective spirit from the use.
Check your units here: mp5 * mp5/spi = mp5^2/spi. You want to divide by 0.6 instead of multiply.

Last edited by CaseyTheRetard : 02/03/11 at 4:06 PM. Reason: Correction to spirit->mp5 calculation


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Old 02/03/11, 2:15 PM   #370
aggixx
Von Kaiser
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Hyjal
On the topic of trinket values, I did some quick napkin math for all of the 359+ trinkets and the two 346 int trinkets.

I used the stat weights from this post, using the 359 iLvl Haste focused set, where I averaged the values for Multi and Single: Heavy. I had to estimate the value of spirit, so you may wish to adjust the value of the calculations based on your own value of spirit.

INTSPIRITHASTE
144.5110120.5

NameIntSpiritHasteEP Value
[Shard of Woe] 1400322.5192861
[Tyrande's Favorite Doll]321590 111284
Vibrant Alchemist's Stone35122519498846
[Jar of Ancient Remedies] 893.63 98298
[Fall of Mortality]363351.63 91133
[Darkmoon Card: Tsunami]321400 90384
[Jar of Ancient Remedies] 792.58 87138
[Fall of Mortality]321351.63 85064
[Core of Ripeness]321321 81694
[Tear of Blood]285361.56 80954
[Witching Hourglass]285 311.9678773
[Figurine - Dream Owl]285237.5 67307

Spirit EP values are post-4.0.6!

Last edited by aggixx : 02/04/11 at 7:52 PM.

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Old 02/03/11, 2:37 PM   #371
Nodrak
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Khaz Modan
Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
On the topic of trinket values, I did some quick napkin math for all of the 359+ trinkets and the two 346 int trinkets.

I used the stat weights from this post, using the 359 iLvl Haste focused set, where I averaged the values for Multi and Single: Heavy. I had to estimate the value of spirit, so you may wish to adjust the value of the calculations based on your own value of spirit.

INTSPIRITHASTE
144.5110120.5

NameIntSpiritHasteEP Value
[Shard of Woe] 1400322.5192861
[Tyrande's Favorite Doll]321590 111284
Vibrant Alchemist's Stone35122519498846
[Jar of Ancient Remedies] 893.63 98298
[Darkmoon Card: Tsunami]321400 90384
[Jar of Ancient Remedies] 792.58 87138
[Tear of Blood]285400.78 85267
[Fall of Mortality]363269.64 82113
[Core of Ripeness]321321 81694
[Witching Hourglass]285 324.6880306
[Fall of Mortality]321269.64 76044
[Figurine - Dream Owl]285237.5 67307

Spirit EP values are post-4.0.6!
The values from that post are not what I would consider 'correct'. Taking the numbers for 'High End' since they are close to my paladin's.

Int Haste Crit Mastery
142 107 108 77

When my spreadsheet gives me (rough numbers, not at home):

Int Haste Crit Mastery Spirit
15 6 5 3 7
Granted these are not an authority since it is still a work in progress.

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Old 02/03/11, 3:23 PM   #372
CaseyTheRetard
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Stormreaver
Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
On the topic of trinket values, I did some quick napkin math for all of the 359+ trinkets and the two 346 int trinkets.
Can you clarify how you evaluate the procs on Tear of Blood and (heroic/normal) Fall of Mortality? What spirit to mp5 conversion did you use for this work?


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Old 02/03/11, 4:43 PM   #373
DiamondTear
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Lightning's Blade (EU)
According to our druid who tested Fall of Mortality (Heroic) ICD with blanket hots, it's 75 seconds. Considering that theralion's mirror - Wowhead Search has different procs between normal and heroic mode versions, I think we can conclude that heroic FoM has the wrong proc. Make sure you report that, US people.

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Old 02/03/11, 9:52 PM   #374
aggixx
Von Kaiser
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by CaseyTheRetard View Post
Can you clarify how you evaluate the procs on Tear of Blood and (heroic/normal) Fall of Mortality? What spirit to mp5 conversion did you use for this work?
Tear of Blood was calculated as a 60s ICD, Fall of Mortality was a 90s ICD, Heroic was a 75s ICD. All spirit use effects and procs were simply averaged out based on uptime. Mana Tide Totem is ignored as the calculations are aimed for 4.0.6+.

As far as the ICD changing on Fall of Mortality, I find it rather strange, but I'm just going off of wowhead comments and guild raid logs if someone in my guild has the trink and comments aren't very clear (not in this case though).

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Old 02/04/11, 5:33 AM   #375
Fizzlebeard
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Haomarush (EU)
Originally Posted by CaseyTheRetard View Post
Check your units here: mp5 * mp5/spi = mp5^2/spi. You want to divide by 0.6 instead of multiply.
I should not do (even basic) math without a pen, paper and units, thanks for the correction.

About the Jar, you get 400 spirit (in comparison to Tsunami) or 300 spirit (in comparison to the Doll) while losing the 321 intellect from either. I don't think that is worth it, I consider intellect to be more than 25% better (necessary to overtake Tsunami) than spirit per point due to the increase in throughput it provides on all our heals, not just upgrading HL to DL. In my opinion, Jar is only good for 4.06 Mana Tide Shaman.

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