[Holy]Cataclysm Holy Compendium (4.0.6) - Page 29

Offsajdh · 02/09/11, 4:48 AM

The main issue with the Lay on Hands changes is that it no longer tranfers through our beacon. We used to be able to throw out a 100k heal on a raidmember and get 50k of that transfered to the tank for free, effectively allowing us to "save" 2 low hp raiders in one stroke, and gain a significant amount of mana by doing so if you're glyphed for it. A powerful tool and the envy of many is less powerful now, but still great.

Although the forberance effect may not in general be a problem for a pally tank to get around, there are fights such as Chimaeron where that forberance may cause a problem in the end stretch. With healing reduced by 99% there's no point in using it, but if it had been used during the minute prior to entering the burn phase it may cause the tank to be unable to use his HoP or Divine Shield to his discretion.
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Regarding DMC:T.
The buff lasts 20s, you have a chance to get it to restack. The typical scenario is that it will tick down to 12s remaining, and then get restacked. The chance of it falling of is close to non-existant provided you simply cast something during the final 10s of its buff in order for it to restack. I have not had it (allowed it to) fall of during an encounter yet, not even magmaw. Be sure to have it stacked when beginning the encounter too, just cast a few holy shocks to get it maxxed and judge as you enter the fight and you'll be at full mana and fully stacked.

Naronas · 02/09/11, 5:31 AM

The chance of DMC:T falling off is about 0% now. Since every heal can proc it, including Judgements, and beacon transfers, youd have to not heal. for 20 seconds straight. I did test and the ICD is gone, however the proc rate is incredibly high.

Rage1986 · 02/09/11, 5:35 AM

Originally Posted by Offsajdh

Be sure to have it stacked when beginning the encounter too, just cast a few holy shocks to get it maxxed and judge as you enter the fight and you'll be at full mana and fully stacked.

Cheapest way to start the fight on full mana, fully stacked Conviction and DMC:T is to cast a HS and pop LoD in the middle of the crowd. Each LoD heal procs Giant Wave and has a substantial chance to crit as well, making it a very effective and fast way to be ready for the pulls.

Hendrixstorm · 02/09/11, 5:57 AM

Originally Posted by Offsajdh

The main issue with the Lay on Hands changes is that it no longer tranfers through our beacon. We used to be able to throw out a 100k heal on a raidmember and get 50k of that transfered to the tank for free, effectively allowing us to "save" 2 low hp raiders in one stroke, and gain a significant amount of mana by doing so if you're glyphed for it. A powerful tool and the envy of many is less powerful now, but still great.

Although the forberance effect may not in general be a problem for a pally tank to get around, there are fights such as Chimaeron where that forberance may cause a problem in the end stretch. With healing reduced by 99% there's no point in using it, but if it had been used during the minute prior to entering the burn phase it may cause the tank to be unable to use his HoP or Divine Shield to his discretion.

I don't see that as an "issue" really. If you meant nerf, yeah, it is one. The reality is we already have a big on CD heal (GoAK), and we have several other smaller scale cooldowns, some of which are oriented on avoiding damage insteead of taking it. (AM Sac BoP etc), all that's been lost is, as you said, the borderline overpowered ability to save two raid members pretty much from the brink of death in one spellcast.

I wouldn't argue that forberance can't cause BoP issues now, it can and you're right about that. The point I was trying to make was that it wouldn't create paladin tank specific issues.

Xunwael · 02/09/11, 1:15 PM

In the vein of the [Vibrant Alchemist Stone], there are some strange things going on with [Mysterious Potion] right now, which make it far superior to mythical for achlemists, and arguably superior to concentration. I drank one of these just to see how much it healed me now, with the stone equipped, and found that it gave me 31k mana, which kinda surprised me since that was clearly far above 40% more than 15k. So I drank 20 of them, and saw some strange procs:

(This is with the stone equipped, and my alchemy skill at 510)

Mana	Health
+37333	+41226
+15790	+24479
+25115	+43334
+19877	+20917
+18449	+30476
+16236	+38950
+32844	+29518
+19145	+36710
+33539	+36589
+38014	+45972
+20466	+34175
+30822	+24046
+36742	+20877
+25354	+33957
+18149	+41540
+29436	+33367
+27197	+25409
+35919	+33142
+22641	+27534
+32639	+25701

With that (low number of) samples, it averages to about 26785 mana and 32395 healing. (I also saw a 62k crit heal, but didn't recieve any when I started writing down my results - probably just bad luck with my 14% critrate. This was without conviction up, which probably buffs the healing by a further 9%) This is much, much higher than should ever be possible if the tooltip was correct, and makes the [Mysterious Potion] currently vastly superior to [Mythical Mana Potion] for alchemists, and arguably even better than [Potion of Concentration] if you get some useful benefit out of the now considerable amount of healing. Heck, it's probably even better without the healing, since you're not incapacitated for 10 seconds and can keep doing stuff like judge and auto-attack even if you have nothing else to do.

[edit] I also had at least two procs over 40k mana during our 10 man raid today, which had the other (non-alchemist) healers freaking out. Had a few 15-16k procs too, though, so it's still pretty random, but still - a chance at gaining 40k mana can't be intended? If it is, it (randomly) places alchemy far above all the other professions when you get lucky procs. Or not so lucky, with the average mana gain being far above mythical, and the added healing benefit which is frequently very useful, especially with nerfed protector.

fmackenz · 02/09/11, 2:46 PM

The spell effect on use for [Mandala of Stirring Patterns] says 10% proc, if you assume a 40 sec ICD. With 10s duration, and averaging ~2s casts, that would bring the average Int to 321...

But that's just a guess to make it work out to 321.

Which feels about right, since it puts it right around the same level as [Core of Ripeness].

IF that's correct, I'd put [Mandala of Stirring Patterns] a little above [Core of Ripeness] because it's a passive ability AND you might get a little extra juice from a lucky DP. Of course, you lose out on the increased mana pool from the beginning.

danau · 02/10/11, 6:51 AM

Stop equating int procs to "average int". An int proc does _not_ equate to an average amount of int. It equates to burst throughput and, if timed correctly, increased regen from DP/AT. Reducing these procs to an average int number is just misleading for people who may only read these forums at a glance.

fmackenz · 02/10/11, 2:09 PM

From last nights combat logs, it appears that the internal cooldown of [Mandala of Stirring Patterns] is 50 seconds.

Up time for Pattern of Light hovered between 16 and 18 percent. So it was up for 10 seconds once a minute.

kamborambo · 02/10/11, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by Xunwael

In the vein of the [Vibrant Alchemist Stone], there are some strange things going on with [Mysterious Potion] right now, which make it far superior to mythical for achlemists, and arguably superior to concentration. I drank one of these just to see how much it healed me now, with the stone equipped, and found that it gave me 31k mana, which kinda surprised me since that was clearly far above 40% more than 15k. So I drank 20 of them, and saw some strange procs:

Thats very interesting. I used one today, and the potion crit healed me for 65k with 28k mana. I have a feeling this isnt working as intended.

jmayhall · 02/10/11, 2:48 PM

Originally Posted by Zalinda

The bigger picture of this is that it makes paladin tanks more of a problem during the "oh shit" moments compared to other tanks, and therefor puts us at a disadvantage.
This exact same mechanic was introduced earlier (somewhere in wotlk) and reverted because of this very issue.

I can understand LOH giving a debuff on a target preventing another LoH. But a healer casting LoH preventing the tank from using his own CD's is bad design. If blizzard persists with this design, then bubble and LoH shouldn't be mutually exclusive.

Consider an expected moment with high incoming damage and the tank is low HP. Can the healer use LoH to get the tank up only to then have the tank unable to use his own tanking abilities ?
A warrior tank can still use shield wall after receiving a LoH, but a paladin tank can't use his "bubble wall" under the same conditions.

There are ways around that. If you have beacon up on the Main Tank, and your main tank is a Prot Pally, use LoH on another target, ie, off tank, low health dps, youself, etc. That way, you can still give a very strong insta heal to someone that doesnt need to have forbearance on them and your tank that may need to also use a tanking CD. Combine that with Hand of Sacrifice and it's 80% of the healing (50% from the beacon, 30% damage transfer) you would have done if the LoH was direct. It may be annoying, but, other ways of accomplishing the same goal.

EDIT: I guess i didnt read up on the LoH changes before posting. The forbearance does cause a small issue, but, if you cant recover from a 130-140k insta heal, you probably were going to wipe anyways. \laugh

Grigorim · 02/10/11, 2:55 PM

There are ways around that. If you have beacon up on the Main Tank, and your main tank is a Prot Pally, use LoH on another target, ie, off tank, low health dps, youself, etc. That way, you can still give a very strong insta heal to someone that doesnt need to have forbearance on them and your tank that may need to also use a tanking CD.

Patch notes state that LoH will not be "modified" by Beacon. Can anyone confirm if this does, in fact, work? I thought the wording was odd, but it seemed like the intent was that LoH does not pass through Beacon (I do not have a holy spec atm to test this out).

jmayhall · 02/10/11, 3:01 PM

Originally Posted by Grigorim

Patch notes state that LoH will not be "modified" by Beacon. Can anyone confirm if this does, in fact, work? I thought the wording was odd, but it seemed like the intent was that LoH does not pass through Beacon (I do not have a holy spec atm to test this out).

The notes are a bit confusing, but as stated, it does NOT pass through Beacon anymore. Just tested that out.

Nodrak · 02/10/11, 4:37 PM

Originally Posted by fmackenz

The spell effect on use for [Mandala of Stirring Patterns] says 10% proc, if you assume a 40 sec ICD. With 10s duration, and averaging ~2s casts, that would bring the average Int to 321...

But that's just a guess to make it work out to 321.

Which feels about right, since it puts it right around the same level as [Core of Ripeness].

IF that's correct, I'd put [Mandala of Stirring Patterns] a little above [Core of Ripeness] because it's a passive ability AND you might get a little extra juice from a lucky DP. Of course, you lose out on the increased mana pool from the beginning.

Int available pre-pull (ie, static int) is around 50% more potent then Int gained mid fight, regardless of the randomness and timing. DP must return more mana when used with the higher total Int to offset the inital mana lost, ignoring more complicated factors like timing and delaying. For some rough math at 321 int with buffs, you would need to regen about 17% of the max mana gained from the proc, under the assumption you are not delaying DP, and not wasting the spellpower from the proc (ie, downtime). In this case, you need one and half DP's to cover this, or one Glyphed DP. This also assumes that replenisment returns are equal and no meta gem bonus, to keep it simple.

Also, I will try to update the OP tonight to 4.0.6 information, and maybe change some of the formatting to be more printer friendly. Nothing really game changing, and an upside to the PotI reduction is that simultaneous casts are less penalizing now

It would also be nice to get some proof of the PPM of Seal of Insight (or it's relevant mechanics if it is no longer PPM). It is currently transferring the healing to the beacon, as odd as that sounds, and as such may hold potential increases.

fallenhopeshero · 02/11/11, 2:08 AM

I'm fairly certain that the Darkmoon Cards chance to proc goes up as the seconds go by. For instance, spamming flash of light 10 times typically gets me up to 2 or 3 stacks of Giant Wave, however, if you do the same 10 flash of lights, but wait for the timer to go down to 9 seconds remaining, they will proc every time. Here are the numbers I got out of 20 casts at each second interval.

Seconds Remaining ----> Chance to Proc
19-17 ------------------------> <1%?
16 ----------------------------> 5%
15 ----------------------------> 10%
14 ----------------------------> 15%
13 ----------------------------> 20%
12 ----------------------------> 25%
11 ----------------------------> 50%
10 ----------------------------> 75%
<10 --------------------------> 100%

To get these numbers I'd cast a single target heal on myself to get the first proc (which was 100%) and then cast a Holy Shocks at each second after for 20 attempts. So I'd cast a holy shock at 19 seconds twenty different times, and then at 18 seconds twenty different times, and then 17 etc etc etc... I actually never got it to proc at 19, 18, or 17 seconds but I did get it to proc at 19 seconds many times when I cast a Holy Radiance with raid members around therefore, as someone already posted, it calculates this percentage for EVERY heal done by you. It also seems to be effected by HR crits but this hasn't been confirmed at all, just an observation.

sunsmoon · 02/11/11, 5:43 AM

Originally Posted by Xunwael

In the vein of the [Vibrant Alchemist Stone], there are some strange things going on with [Mysterious Potion] right now, which make it far superior to mythical for achlemists, and arguably superior to concentration. I drank one of these just to see how much it healed me now, with the stone equipped, and found that it gave me 31k mana, which kinda surprised me since that was clearly far above 40% more than 15k. So I drank 20 of them, and saw some strange procs

It's giving strange procs without an alchemist stone, so either they increased the mana gains (without updating the text), alchemy skill increases maximum mana gained, or it's bugged. Unfortunately, I can't test on a non-alchemist character, but with 525 Alchemy, 3/3 Divinity, and no stone equipped I got:

Mana	Health	Notes (All crits procced Conviction)
+29322	+29487
+26124	+30213
+20930	+11314
+15631	+28918
+15791	+26427
+25389	+26088
+21267	+29502
+17327	+19648
+22591	+33524
+26427	+37975	Critical heal, also procced Heartsong.
+24971	+12201
+23020	+23370
+10137	+22640
+20267	+15654
+13534	+18226
+16323	+31349
+29777	+34842	Critical heal
+14419	+19789
+18008	+22257

With the trinket equipped:

Mana	Health	Notes (All crits procced Conviction)
+39639	+30198	Critical heal
+41116	+24972
+40312	+19507
+31353	+37481	Critical Heal
+30028	+69569	Critical Heal
+38575	+41137
+14946	+54921	Critical Heal
+39386	+30462	Procced Heartsong
+28357	+43542
+23258	+18502
+29397	+24226
+37895	+65653	Critical Heal
+24072	+43471
+19301	+45389
+23911	+27871
+36689	+42002
+27985	+54600	Critical Heal
+14641	+40668
+36891	+46740

And for giggles, I used 6 Mythical Potions:

Mana	Trinket?
10070	No
9852	No
10455	No
13974	Yes
13828	Yes
14896	Yes