[Holy]Cataclysm Holy Compendium (4.0.6) - Page 31

Sun_Tzu · 02/12/11, 7:07 AM

Originally Posted by Havoxwow

This is what happened, actually. On Chimaeron feud and Maloriak HM red vial/last phase this week I noticed significantly less raid healing needed. Every class but us received substantial buffs this week especially resto druids and disc priests. My raid comp had myself, 2 disc priests, 1 resto druid and 2 resto shamans and healing was noticeably easier than last week. I would think this would be even more noticeable in 10man (depending on your healing comp of course) since LoD is harder to use in many encounters.

Disc has indeed risen to be the new star of the pack, but things scale a bit differently sometimes in 10mans. For one, you can't really afford to carry Shamans, so that means no mana tide, not that it would have been spectacular either way. More to the point, it's harder to find the extra time as disc priest to make proper usage of smitespam/arch angel in order to keep your mana up for that vital PW:Shield spam. Certainly I didn't feel that the need for LoD had really been diminished at least on Magmaw practice the other day, and the LoD and BoL synergy will be felt quite strongly imo.

Azshira · 02/12/11, 7:13 AM

I wouldn't of recommended LoD as a glyph slot in a 10man anyway but I agree with everything you said. WoG is used on CD almost, LoD is far more situational. I decided to change my spec since I used it only on certain fights anyway and a resto druids wild growth is vastly out-doing my aoe power of LoD anyway and I'm always grouped with 1. My spec will now be catered towards the run-speed of PoJ, I think it is far greater usage than LoD ever was for me anyway.

Havoxwow · 02/12/11, 7:21 AM

Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu

Disc has indeed risen to be the new star of the pack, but things scale a bit differently sometimes in 10mans. For one, you can't really afford to carry Shamans, so that means no mana tide, not that it would have been spectacular either way. More to the point, it's harder to find the extra time as disc priest to make proper usage of smitespam/arch angel in order to keep your mana up for that vital PW:Shield spam. Certainly I didn't feel that the need for LoD had really been diminished at least on Magmaw practice the other day, and the LoD and BoL synergy will be felt quite strongly imo.

An unfortunate difference from 25man then; having MTT (or 2 even) for the disc priests and myself worked better for us than bringing in another paladin on every hardmode encounter this week. I found the need to LoD greatly diminished.

Our resto druid put out some extremely competitive numbers with the WG buff as well which I'm sure contributed.

Originally Posted by Azshira

My spec will now be catered towards the run-speed of PoJ, I think it is far greater usage than LoD ever was for me anyway.

I considered this but haven't decided on a spec yet. I have favored PoJ the entire expansion and been ignoring every WoG talent but if we are to be casting WoG as often as many of us suspect then it seems foolish to not take EG which leaves out PoJ sadly. I can live with Earthen Vitality if that ends up being the case.

Simply buffing LoD in some way would fix this problem but we may be waiting for a while on that fix.

Sun_Tzu · 02/12/11, 7:37 AM

Originally Posted by Azshira

I wouldn't of recommended LoD as a glyph slot in a 10man anyway but I agree with everything you said. WoG is used on CD almost, LoD is far more situational. I decided to change my spec since I used it only on certain fights anyway and a resto druids wild growth is vastly out-doing my aoe power of LoD anyway and I'm always grouped with 1. My spec will now be catered towards the run-speed of PoJ, I think it is far greater usage than LoD ever was for me anyway.

The glyph hasn't been a mainstay in 10man specs since the first LoD nerf, as indeed WoG when glyphed/talented is far stronger in most situations. However, the times you could actually make use of glyphed LoD's on 10man were also some of the most crucial moments, meaning the impact of the change, although situational, will still be felt.

Even though LoD might be very hard to justify now, that only further emphasizes the need for EG, so I don't see a PoJ spec being very viable for 10mans, especially not after this change.

Malleus · 02/12/11, 7:54 AM

Originally Posted by Maestre

It isn't too hard to figure out how this changes here, the healing from LoD is simply cut by 33 % (assuming you don't hit the tank with it), Instead you the old break even point of healing 3 people goes up to healing 4.5 people.

It's not that simple. LoD was a strong heal for us because it let us do some group healing without diverting from our primary task of healing the tank. That's not to say it becomes totally useless just because that capacity is removed - it's still good to have on things like Maloriak red phase and Chimaeron, for instance. But if we need to shift our focus for whatever reason, it's almost always going to be better to heal one person for 20k and the tank for 10k than to heal five people for a total of 40k but not heal the tank at all.

EDIT: Light of Dawn will still do some healing to the tank if he's in range, as tanks will usually be one of the five or six people at the lowest health.

Bouchkevka · 02/12/11, 4:22 PM

I ran some numbers for WoG vs LoD now that Beacon LoD transfer is out to see if I can have some rules to determine which heal is best under what circumstances. My guild is strickly 10man and is 11/12N, thus the Nefarian fight is my model for healing situations. I took our 2 nights on Nefarian and picked out the best attempts and then the averages for the night to come up with "in game stats" using the world of log parses localed here: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis if you want to check them.

Word of Glory numbers:

WoG avg non crit:       16,671
WoG avg w/ EG:          21,672 - 2/2 Eternal Glory
WoG avg w/ 18% crit:  23,623
WoG avg w/ 78% crit:  30,124 - 2/2 Last Word
Min WoG:                  16,671
Max WoG:                 50,013 - double crit EG proc

Light of Dawn numbers:

1 Target      5,501  min    5,996 avg    8,252 max
2 Targets    11,002 min  11,993 avg  16,504 max
3 Targets    16,503 min  17,989 avg  24,755 max
4 Targets    22,004 min  23,985 avg  33,007 max
5 Targets    27,505 min  29,981 avg  41,259 max
6 Targets    33,006 min  35,978 avg  49,511 max

min = no crit, avg = w/ 18% crit, max = 100% crit

With everyone above 35% it takes 4 targets for LoD to be equal in output to WoG.
With a target below 35% health it takes 5 targets for LoD to be equal in output to WoG.

In 10 man even with Nef's every 10% 100k crackle WoG with Holy Radiance is going to be better throughput especially since WoG will transfer to beacon which allows me some run time to stack on the raid and heal up critical players. To further depress me about LoD here is the WoG table with Beacon figured in:

Word of Glory + Beacon numbers:

WoG avg non crit:       25,007
WoG avg w/ EG:          32,508 - 2/2 Eternal Glory
WoG avg w/ 18% crit:  35,435
WoG avg w/ 78% crit:  45,186 - 2/2 Last Word
Min WoG:                   25,007
Max WoG:                  75,020 - double crit EG proc

As an aside to WoG usage it is interesting to me that if you get two WoG's from an EG proc on a player with low enough health you can do 50K healing which would be the same as 6 LoD crits. The WoG scenario is 78% x 30% x 78% = 18.2%. That is my current crit chance for each LoD tick.

Finally to add to that thought: for a 130k health raider 35% is 45,500 health. Thus if their health is 20,494 (15.76%) or less they have a double chance for 60% more crit with WoG. A tank at 180k health comes out to needing 37,994 (21.11%) health or less.

*edited typos

Gizo · 02/12/11, 4:58 PM

Just used LoD in the AH.
It hits everyone in front of me, not only 5(+1glyhed) targets.
Maybe this is just bugged and will be hotfixed soon.
But maybe this is intended, then it's a reasonable nerf of LoD on Beacon.

eternalwhitemoon · 02/12/11, 5:19 PM

Originally Posted by Gizo

Just used LoD in the AH.
It hits everyone in front of me, not only 5(+1glyhed) targets.
Maybe this is just bugged and will be hotfixed soon.
But maybe this is intended, then it's a reasonable nerf of LoD on Beacon.

It's been that way for quite some time. You need to be in a party or raid; then it will hit 5 (6 glyphed).

Lightrender · 02/12/11, 7:03 PM

Just tested LoD on a friend in Org, the beacon was getting a transfer from LoD. I had beaconed the other player so that he should have gotten 3 heals when I used Light of Dawn IF it was still transferring, which he did. If LoD was NOT transferring, he should have only gotten 2. It turns out that he had 1 LoD, 1 PotI beacon and 1 LoD transfer.

Coupons's Light of Dawn heals Coupons for 0.(1847 Overhealed)
Coupons's Light of Dawn heals Grandpab for 0.(1755 Overhealed)
Coupons Illuminated Healing is refreshed on Coupons. (989 Remaining)
Coupons's Protector of the Innocent heals Coupons for 0.(3991 Overhealed)
Coupons's Beacon of Light heals Grandpab for 0.(872 Overhealed)
Grandpab gains Coupons Illuminated Healing. (248 Remaining).
Coupons's Beacon of Light heals Grandpab for 0.(1883 Overhealed)

Coupons's Light of Dawn heals Grandpab for 0.(1755 Overhealed)=LoD
Coupons's Beacon of Light heals Grandpab for 0.(872 Overhealed)=Self LoD beacon
Coupons's Beacon of Light heals Grandpab for 0.(1883 Overhealed)=PotI beacon

Korbah · 02/12/11, 7:24 PM

It seems like the LoD hotfix was reverted, it started working with beacon while I was raiding today(it wasn't working earlier, now it is). So not sure if they're going to announce reverting that or what's going on.

Blutelf · 02/13/11, 12:42 AM

The hotfix note concerning Beacon and LoD was documenting an unintended side-effect of one particular part of the hotfix and that part of the hotfix was now reverted.

Source: Yet another pally nerf? - Forums - World of Warcraft

Lightshadow · 02/13/11, 1:46 AM

Originally Posted by Lightrender

Especially now that the WoG formula has been changed, I've been noticing about 25% stronger WoG healing.

Compared to when? A quick test with gear and no gear suggests that the information from the OP is more or less right. (I get a coefficient just over .22 instead of .209, but if that's not a rounding error it's 5% not 25%).

Edit for arithmetic failure.

Starfire · 02/13/11, 2:11 AM

Originally Posted by sunsmoon

It's giving strange procs without an alchemist stone, so either they increased the mana gains (without updating the text), alchemy skill increases maximum mana gained, or it's bugged. Unfortunately, I can't test on a non-alchemist character, but with 525 Alchemy, 3/3 Divinity, and no stone equipped I got:

Sorry to invade, but if anyone else is doing testing on this, please be sure to take note of your current mana (and current health) if possible. And of course talents.

It's not unreasonable to expect the potions to factor in current/total mana/health since the original BC ones certainly did.

Also, we could possibly hijack Mysterious Potion Data so we don't have all the druids, shamans and priests invading the paladin threads.

Lightrender · 02/13/11, 2:31 AM

Originally Posted by Lightshadow

Compared to when? A quick test with gear and no gear suggests that the information from the OP is more or less right. (I get a coefficient just over .22 instead of .209, but if that's not a rounding error it's 5% not 25%).

Edit for arithmetic failure.

My WoG, pre-4.0.6 patch, would only hit for 17k non-crit/25k crits, but now I'm noticing it hit for 20k non-crits and 30k crits. My gear has not changed since I last looked at these numbers.

Edit: This is closer to 20% than 25%, I'll look at the numbers again next time I raid. These were only rough estimates of what I was seeing, however.

Haraadh · 02/13/11, 8:52 AM

Originally Posted by Lightrender

My WoG, pre-4.0.6 patch, would only hit for 17k non-crit/25k crits, but now I'm noticing it hit for 20k non-crits and 30k crits. My gear has not changed since I last looked at these numbers.

Noticed the same increase with 3 stack WoG 25k crits pre-patch 30k crits after, without any change to gear. However, I didnt saw any changes for WoG in patch notes . Also found a short (1s?) ICD on PotI, it no longer procs if you cast HL or DL and WoG immediately after it.

Also, I feel my overall healing is lower. I could do 8k HPS with HS off cd and HL spam to gain daybreak procs, while post-patch this gives me 6k HPS. I am not sure if the nerfs (the ICD and 30% deduction) could account for such heavy healing loss. However, if the extra HPS was due to PotI (which is mainly (~50%) overhealing) the pre patch HPS was just misleading. This data I get from looking at my recount so I cant give you hard facts.

We mainly raid 10 man normal and I am not the tank healer, but I could imagine tank healing is harder with the nerfes to PotI.

On a side note I feel my healing is better intune with other classes. The 10% increase in mana cost for most spells, makes me loose a bit of mana, while prepatch I could outheal all other classes without going OOM.

I am also happy with the buff to DP. Pre-patch I was usually forced to cancel DP before it had run its full duration. The 9 seconds duration makes it easier to synch with tank cd or low raid damage phase.

PS: Rebuke is awesome.