I don't think you understand how campfires work.

And Insightful Earthsiege Diamond should be added to the OP, the mana is generally better than the Ember cuts.

I did some sifting through my own Blackwing Descent log from my first raid (this). I've specced 1/2 Blessed Life, as I feel that the first point is easily got from Last Word. I got the following procs:

- Hand of Sacrifice
-- No Holy Power gains.

- Magmar:
-- No Holy Power gains.

- Omnitron
-- 8 Holy Power, making it almost three times as effective as Tower of Radiance (3 Holy Power) and worth almost the same as Eternal Glory point for point (20 Holy Power), 7,3% of the total of 109 Holy Power gainer throughout the fight.
-- Gains from: Arcane Annihilator, Electrical Discharge
-- No gains from: Incineration Security Measure

- Atramedes
-- 6 Holy Power, making it two times as effective as Tower of Radiance (3 Holy Power) and worth four times as much as Eternal Glory point for point (3Holy Power), 7.1% of the total of 84 Holy Power gainer throughout the fight.
-- Gains from: Modulation
-- No gains from: Searing Flame (Blessed Life was on CD a lot due to Modulation, so it might still proc from Flame)

- Maloriak
-- 6 Holy Power, making it worth more than Eternal Glory point for point (9Holy Power), 7,5% of the total of 80 Holy Power gainer throughout the fight.
-- 6 Holy Power
-- Gains from: Scorcing Flame
-- No gains from: Acid Nova, Arcane Storm

My opinion: 1/2 is worth it because Last Word is so extremely situational. You need to have a WoG ready the moment someone is in life threatening need before it becomes useful. And with current raiding dynamics, the whole raid will be heavily damage at once, making LoD>WoG, once again making Last Word less useful. If I could pull both points and but them into Blessed Life I would.

1/2 Blessed Life seems to grant another 7ish % Holy Power throughout a fight with unavoidable AoE. It's not the most awesome talent ever in PvE, but it's ok for that last point you need in Holy. I don't know if 2/2 is worth it, or where to get the second point. Eternal Glory is, IMO, too essential on fights where you can't abuse LoD (Conclave, Omnitron, Theralion)

I like it because it gives me that Holy Power when I most want it: after a raidwide AoE pulse, giving me 1/3rd of a LoD. I saved up 3 Holy Power right before Atramedes and Maloriak should do their AoE (so I could immediatly LoD), but that might not be the correct decision, as you might waste a Blessed Life proc that way. Next time, I'll save up 2 HP and see how many more procs I get.

ilvl359 healer weapons range in speed from 1.6 to 1.8. Our slowest weapon will drop below 1.5s swing time at a level of haste we can get from pre-raid gear, and our fastest weapon will not swing faster than spell GCD until we go past the soft cap. We may achieve this during Heroism at high levels of haste, but in general we can ignore the issue because it will never arise.

Point taken on the mana savings of CS, but you should still use CS over Beacon switching to generate HoPo in any circumstance where you don't need to move your Beacon anyway (e.g. tank swaps). Otherwise you're using two free GCDs - one to move it, and another to move it back.

I have notice several people have place 2 points into this talent and I am wondering why?

It is my understanding that Judgement is a melee attack and would only require 8% hit rating which is easily done with just placing 1 point into Enlighted Judgements due to the amount of spirit on our current gear.

You could easily move that point into Improved Judgement, so it can't be for the increased range and I wouldn't think an increase in self heals by 1000hp every 8 secs could justify the reasoning for placing the extra point in there.

I feel like I am missing something in my logic and was hoping you guys could enlighten me since several posters have the second point placed in this talent.

The extra self-healing from the other point in Enlightened Judgements is also transfered to the beacon target.

Judging while Seal of Insight is active nets you 10% of base mana (15% from the SoI ability minus 5% for the cost of the Judgement). It's very important to be doing it as often as possible for the regen.

Enlightened Judgements gives "free" healing to both yourself and the Beacon target every time you judge. Since you're going to be judging as often as possible, the heals, while not huge (4.5k-ish on myself in my terrible gear, with 2.2k transfered to the beacon), do add up. It turns a regen GCD into a regen and heal GCD.

I am wondering what people are thinking/planning in regards to the T11 set bonuses. Our tier gear seems to be itemized really sub-optimally; none of the 5 pieces have haste on them; they all are either spirit/crit or spirit/mastery. However, there are offset plate haste/spirit items available for the head, chest, gloves, and legs slots.

The 2 piece bonus (2% crit to HL) seems very mediocre; HL crits don't generate any special procs or synergies and HL overall, at least on most of my logs is a small percentage (less than 10% normally) of healing done. The 4 piece bonus is interesting; it's worth 540 spirit if using Holy Radiance on CD. On most fights, we won't be using it close to on cooldown, but will instead be waiting for burst raid AoE to happen though, so the actual value is probably more like 300-400 spirit depending on the fight. Using T11 4 piece probably would mean losing 400-500 haste in favor of crit/mastery, so I am not sure that it's worth it.

On the spirit/haste/mastery/crit issue. I did some math on the subject today, which made me start doubt if haste really is any stronger than crit and mastery. Assuming the following variables:

• Int - Intelligence
• HPD - Number of HL needed to reach the size of DL. Difficult to give an exact estimate due to all the PotI and BoL interaction, but it is somewhere between 2 and 3.
• HPH - Max amount of HL per hundred seconds. I could use haste instead, but it just makes the formulas larger. And since everything but Spirit depends on it, it really isn't that interesting except for completion.
• AHPS - Average HPS as a ratio to HPS from HL spam only. It should of course be bigger than 1 unless all you do is spam Holy Light, but exactly how big depends on how many non-Holy Light you are able to cast, and how much of the time you spend casting non healing spells.

Anyway, with those variables in place, and with the assumption that the available mana for a Holy Paladin generally determines the HL/DL distribution, and has little effect on other things, I get that per 100 seconds and 180 points/rating you can get the following amount of extra healing in terms of HL size while using the same amount of mana:

• Spirit: Sqrt(Int) * 60.21 * (HPD-1) / 4919
• Haste: 0.015*HPH * (1- 2107*(HPD-1)/4919)
• Crit: Haste/5 + AHPS * HPH * 0.005
• Mastery: Up to AHPS * HPH * 0.01

The spirit formula simply represents using mana to convert a HL to a DL (4919 is the mana cost for completely switching one HL to a DL). The haste formula is the extra (part of a) HL you can squeeze in due to the extra haste, minus its mana cost that can no longer be used to convert a HL to a DL. The crit formula is the Infusion of Light part (somewhere in the area of .25-.3% haste) plus the general healing boost. The mastery is just a general healing boost.

Looking at it this way, spirit is way up on top, but haste no longer look that good unless you are doing most of your healing with Holy Light. Haste is still an option for reliable output, but for long term throughput it suffers because of the extra mana spent.

The 4-piece bonus is unusally good. I plan to take 4 pieces and reforge crit /mastery into haste.

Assuming your math is correct - regarding crit, it's the age-old problem. If it comes close on paper, we still need to consider the in-game factors. Are you always going to be leaving enough headroom that IF a spell crits you will gain the full benefit of it? Is it worth perpetually leaving people closer to death so you can gain as much from crit as math on paper says you should? Not to mention that in a raid scenario someone else will have healed your target by then anyway.

To give a more accurate impression of secondary stats, I think you would need to include an approximation of how much crit is likely to be wasted overheal, and what % of mastery shields are likely to be unused or overwritten. With those factored in, my hunch is that haste would still be superior to crit and mastery.

We'll be using HoR very often so the mana back is of great use. However, the other pieces of gear in those slots are exceptionally good. I'd really need math to back up which is more useful... off set or 4 set items. there is a great BiS post here: Home | Best in Slot Holy Paladin Resource on what really is our BiS currently and they give 2 variations on each slot and in each of the set slots is our set bonus, so I really guess either or is good. However, I'd love if someone could calculate how valuable the 4 set is to us currently, I predict it will be great since we pretty much use HoR on cooldown on many fights, that's a lot of 'free' spirit.

The greatest advantage I see with the T11 four set bonus is that it is a controllable proc. If used with Core of Ripeness - Item - World of Warcraft in conjunction with Mana Tide Totem (and possibly another trinket spirit proc) it is possible to net a very large amount of mana back during the course of a fight.

Using my own stats of 4027 int and 2151 spirit self buffed:
Normal combat regen - 2312
Non-MTT w/ T11 4set - 4052
Non-MTT w/ set and Core of Ripeness - 6124

Regen with mana tide - 8093
MTT w/ T11 bonus - 14188
MTT w/ T11 and Core of Ripness - 21434

MTT lasts 12s, 4set lasts 10s, and CoR lasts 20s.
As you can see, stacking spirit procs under the effects of Mana Tide Totem will net ~50k mana. On a side note, MTT is on a shorter cooldown than it was last expansion, meaning we can have a MTT up 2 times (per shaman) in a 5 minute fight.

Is this intended?

Also I'm sure for any boss you'll have it off cooldown for every attempt, if not most.

Just to clarify, are you saying that you gain 14188 mana if you use HR with the tier bonus, making you actually gain mana because it costs 9368?

It's pretty clear from his post that he regained 8093 mana from the totem, but 14188 if he pushed HR during MTT; thus the gain from HR bonus was 6095. Not enough to make the spell free, but enough to make pushing HR during MTT a no-brainer unless there is zero damage to heal.

My guess is that it's a leftover from wotlk when the glyph provided double mana returns if lay on hands was used on yourself, it just works all the time now.

Ionel's numbers aren't the mana returns, they're the MP5 you gain. His assertion that you'd net 50k mana is completely wrong, though; it appears to be based on getting the full regen for the duration of the longest component instead of the shortest. The T11 buff only lasts 10 seconds, so you'd only get twice the difference from totem-only regen. Without Core of Ripeness the mana gain is trivial, but you would at least get a free HR. With the Core, however, your net gain would be just over 17k mana.

These values are not the amount of mana you will receive, they are the values of mp5 you have with each buff active or not active. The purpose of this was to demonstrate how stacking spirit bonuses during mana tide totem nets you much more mana than using them individually, and how the T11 four set bonus plays into the equation.

To calculate how much mana was recieve during MTT i took 21434 (the mp5 value of MTT with all procs) and multiplied by 2.4 (the amount of 5 second intervals in 12 second), since MTT lasts 12 seconds. Very rough calculations, i know, and any help in correcting my math is greatly appreciated.

Which is wrong. First, you cannot multiply 21434 by 2.4 to get the total mana return as for 2 seconds out of 12 you won't have the 4pc bonus. The actual figure would be (21434*2)+(15439*0.2), which is 45956.

Second, you have forgotten to deduct the mana cost of the HR required to trigger the 4pc bonus from the total gain. This reduces your profit by 9368 mana.

Third, you cannot consider the entirety of the mana return to be profit as you would be getting at least 19423 (8093*2.4) mana from your gear even if you didn't use a HR and didn't have Core of Ripeness.

So the real net profit from syncing 4pc T11 and Core with Mana Tide Totem is 45956-9368-19423, or 17165 mana.

There is also a loss for not using Core on CD that will vary with fight length, though I can't find a scenario where using Core only with MTT isn't a profit over using Core on CD and syncing with MTT where possible.

Keep in mind that almost all Resto shamans will take Totemic Focus, which increases the duration of all totems (including MTT) by 40%, meaning it would actually last 16.8 seconds. Thus we can effectively multiply 21434 by 2.4 since the bonus is up during the entirety of MTT.

It doesn't matter how long MTT lasts; we only get returns at 21434 for the 10 seconds of its duration in which the 4pc bonus is active. Core does still last longer than MTT, though, so the gross return would be (21434*2)+(15439*1.36). That comes out at 63865, subtracting (8093*3.36)+9368 to get a net profit of 36560.

Incidentally, I made an error in my own original calculations: the gross return would be (21434*2)+(15439*0.4)=49044, with a net return of 20253.

Have you considered to use Hurricane weapon enchant? I recorded a log yesterday during my HC run and it had 20% uptime. It should be higher for raids. It means like 90 additional haste all the time. Looks like Hurricane has no internal CD, i had 2 proc at the same time.

This is going to be a long post, so forgive me.

Stat Ratings
OK, while I like seeing math on the Spirit vs others stats, I won't be doing much more detailed math in that regards, simply because the picture is really too complicated to show in a simple one line formula that can be understood. Rawr, when it is updated, will be a far better method for you to peruse to your heart's desire. If Rawr.Healadin development doesn't pick up here pretty soon, I plan to offer my services to develop it. That being said there are some common pitfalls people keep falling into here. One of the most common is just basing things off a gut feeling, without even a hint of regard to the basic numbers behind it. I'm looking at you "STAT>STAT>STAT" lists! What good does STAT>STAT tell you when the reality is 1STAT>2STAT? If we just keep talking about subjective observations, this thread will go on forever.

Spirit & Haste
In regards to stats, the other pitfall is that many people are not taking into account that spirit operates at 50% effectiveness in combat, or that mastery does not effect 100% of our healing, or lesser things like Haste being an effective increase in Conviction up-time, or how it increases the HPS of Infusion of Light. There are also no real haste breakpoints of concern outside of Holy Radiance, as all the points of interest are just adding another spell in, even if it pushes your Holy Shock back. For example, without gear, HSx3, HLx8, LoDx1 is better then HSx3, HLx6, LoDx1. When you reach around 47% total haste, adding an extra HL before or after the LoD is extra output, even though you push back holy shock by 1.34s of the 1.7s it takes to cast. The same situation happens with DL at lower haste values due to the relative power of DL to LoD/HS.

There is a reason why I speak highly of Haste, and that is because there exists a point where Haste overtakes Spell power (and thus Int) for the best stat to increase HPS. This point depends on your current spell power, and which spell and/or rotation you are considering. For Holy Light, Divine Light, Holy Shock, and WoG this exists around 4800 spell power, depending on if you use the WoG/HS buffing talents/glyphs. FoL around 6500 spell power, and LoD around 10,400. Holy Radiance is the only spell we have where this point moves with haste as well, and as such is around 2800 spell power due to all the innate haste we get. These assume Spell power from Int, which comes at a rate of 1.212 spell power per stat cost, while pure, non-weapon, spell power is 1.283. Spell power levels will not get high enough to make Crit comparable to Int, as that requires over 28,000 sp. For Mastery purposes, I am assuming a value of roughly the same as crit from henceforth, as under typical conditions mastery will effect less then 50% of our healing.

I have been trying for the life of me to figure out how you came up with these. [Sqrt(Int) * 60.21] should be [0.05 + Sqrt(Int) * 30.105] as you forgot to reduce the Spirit formula in-combat. Haste and Crit are the only two stats in this list that effect Holy Radiance, a non-trivial portion of our healing. What is "Haste/5"? Is that Rating, full percent, decimal percent? and how can you add this benefit from IoL, with no cost at that, while 'taxing' haste for reducing cast times when the average effect on IoL is [2.5 - (1 * Crit%)] / (1 + Haste%) due to the GCD?
Mastery does not effect all the byproducts from casting a HL/DL, and thus does not operate at full effect here, as Beacon and PotI are byproducts of these spells and are thus a part of their 'benefit per cost' analysis.

I think you are going to have to elaborate and show some 'work' (as the ol' math teachers say) for us to take these formulas seriously. However, like I said, stat comparisons will never be simple enough to show in a formula that makes any kind of sense at a glance. HPD is less then 2 and only scales with SP and Mastery.

I should get around to a needed update for the OP later today, but things are still kind of busy around here so no promises.