[Holy]Cataclysm Holy Compendium (4.0.6) - Page 51

DiamondTear · 06/10/11, 10:22 AM

With the numbers from the latest build on the PTR, what is the value of crit and mastery per rating in a scenario where you have two tanks and you're healing the non-beacon tank?

thatbox · 06/10/11, 1:35 PM

According to the numbers from the spreadsheet I've been using and posted earlier, crit and mastery are essentially equal for off-Beacon healing in both potential HPS and HPM. As you do more on-Beacon Healing and less Holy Radiancing (or as Beacon overheal increases) mastery pulls (very) slightly ahead.

Lightrender · 06/10/11, 3:46 PM

If Holy Light beacon heals for 100%, then that would increase the % of your total healing done by Beacon of Light, which, as we all know, is not affected by Mastery. In other words, both Beacon AND Holy Radiance are getting buffed in terms of % total healing done but do NOT proc mastery shields. I would imagine that Crit would pull ahead simply because of this. Also, if you're holy lighting with a beacon on the MT, wouldn't you inherently want crit over mastery since crit helps keep your beacon target alive while mastery does not? Right now mastery only affects what, like 60% of our healing? With these changes that number could easily drop to 40-50% AND crit effectiveness is doubling. Right now on live, mastery is slightly better than crit, but I don't see how mastery could possibly keep up with crit with these changes in 4.2

thatbox · 06/10/11, 5:31 PM

All of that is true. It's also important to note that, while hard to model, 200% crits will have greater impact on spell selection (and thus efficiency beyond higher per-spell HPM) if you you have time to react to them.

crimsonsentinel · 06/10/11, 7:54 PM

How will crits impact your spell selection? If someone is low on health, either you have the mana to use a large heal, or you don't and you use a small heal. If you crit, then great you increased your throughput and mana efficiency, but to purposefully use a smaller heal and then implicitly rely on an rng roll to provide adequate throughput will lead to many deaths. If by relying on crit you mean regearing to emphasize throughput stats at the expense of spirit and rely on holy lights for mana efficiency then yes that would have an effect, but in that situation, most of your healing will be done through holy radiance and light of dawn instead of holy light itself. I also don't believe that is a good strategy since you severely limit your ability to use big heals during "o shit" moments, but that's just an opinion.

On another note, beacon is usually the heal with the highest % overheal for us, so I don't believe crit will have the desired effect many are hoping it will. By far the biggest benefactors from the crit buff will be our aoe heals. Crit will have the better mana efficiency returns because it affects all our heals, but I still doubt that it will return as much effective throughput per itemization point as mastery will.

kurnmogh · 06/10/11, 8:26 PM

Originally Posted by Mattsvaliant-v2

On live, I have about 130k HP fully raid buffed, and I also have 103 Mastery rating (.57). My most recent WoL shows my average DL hitting for about 24k.

8.85% of 24k = 2124
33% of 130k = 42,900
42,900 / 2056 = 20 Divine Lights to reach the max

My theory would be that mastery might be useful up to a certain point, where the goal would be to get the number of DLs to reach the max within reason. With haste and the boss swingtimer, you *might* be able to land 2 DLs on a target before each swing, which would then eat the full shield, and you would have to start over.

So even with the cap, if this proves to be the buff our mastery needed, mastery would still be a desirable stat up to the point where 2 DLs = cap, which would be quite unreasonable to hit.

Edit: Fixed some numbers.

I'm sorry, Mattsvaliant, but I'm not following your math. I think you might have made a small mistake.

- 1 Mastery = 1.5% extra heals converted to Illuminated Healing.
- Base Illuminated Healing is 12% absorption.
- 8 Mastery = base amount while naked/with 0 mastery rating.
- Your 0.57 Mastery = ~0.855% additional heal converted to Illuminated Healing (.57/1 = x/1.5% -> .57x1.5 = 0.855%).
- Thus, your shields should be 12.855% of your heals.

12.855% of 24000 = 3085.2

42,900 / 3085.2 = 13.90 Divine Lights

I think you took the 8 Mastery we're granted as base to be the amount of our heals converted to shields. Each point of Mastery (starting with 8) gives us 1.5% conversion. So we start with a base of 12% absorption, plus your .855% = 12.855% absorption.

At least, I think so. I just went through the math for myself and the numbers work out with my heals, from what I can tell by looking at a WoL parse.

That said, I still think 14 Divine Lights (barring crits and barring shields being used to absorb damage in between casts) as listed in your example in terms of your health and average DL hit, is kind of ridiculous and I'm not convinced this makes mastery terribly better than it currently is. Well. Better than "nearly useless", IMHO, but I'm not sure how much better.

thatbox · 06/10/11, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by crimsonsentinel

How will crits impact your spell selection? If someone is low on health, either you have the mana to use a large heal, or you don't and you use a small heal. If you crit, then great you increased your throughput and mana efficiency, but to purposefully use a smaller heal and then implicitly rely on an rng roll to provide adequate throughput will lead to many deaths. If by relying on crit you mean regearing to emphasize throughput stats at the expense of spirit and rely on holy lights for mana efficiency then yes that would have an effect, but in that situation, most of your healing will be done through holy radiance and light of dawn instead of holy light itself. I also don't believe that is a good strategy since you severely limit your ability to use big heals during "o shit" moments, but that's just an opinion.

I simply meant that if you're tank healing, and you crit with DL, you may be able to avoid casting another DL. It doesn't happen every time you crit by any means, but you can already look at a fight like Chimaeron in weak gear to see critical heals having a small effect on spell selection. 200% crits will further emphasize that.

Edit: I want to make it clear that I'm not advocating gearing for crit by any means. My initial response was in regards to Diamondtear's question about whether crit or Mastery would be least objectionable in 4.2 when you have to choose between a Spi/crit and Spi/mastery piece.

Mattsvaliant-v2 · 06/11/11, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by kurnmogh

That said, I still think 14 Divine Lights (barring crits and barring shields being used to absorb damage in between casts) as listed in your example in terms of your health and average DL hit, is kind of ridiculous and I'm not convinced this makes mastery terribly better than it currently is. Well. Better than "nearly useless", IMHO, but I'm not sure how much better.

I fixed the original math, I meant to use 10.85% based of the incorrect tooltip shown on the official armory, but the original post has now be fix to reflect 12% base shields.

As it stands right now, in 4.1, mastery pulls ahead of crit, barely, and depending on situation. I think that crit rating suffers from too poor a conversion rate, and we get so much from stacking Int and raid buffs that in my opinion gearing for it over mastery just doesn't make sense post 4.2.

Although on review of the gear selection firelands has (a hopefully incomplete list), it doesn't look like we are going to have much of a choice, almost of the armory all of the plate has either spirit + haste or spirit + crit.

Fallenangel · 06/11/11, 7:06 AM

Crit doesn't suffer from poor conversion as much as it just doesn't do enough for paladins compared to the other healing classes. Consider Inspirtaion / Ancestral Fortitude, Divine Aegis, Ancestral Awakening, Improved Waster Shield, Living Seed or simply having a lot of small hots to smooth out crit's RNG. There was Illumination, until it was drowned in a sea of posts about bad streaks and replaced with what is the only none-scaling mana regen tool. /sigh.
The stacking mastery seems fine number wise, but it will suffer from not affecting both Beacon and HR. At least one of those should be improved by mastery for it to be a really viable stat. From a 10m perspective, I do hope for beacon, but that might pin paladins too hard as tank healers.

Daalpha · 06/11/11, 7:25 AM

Concerning Diamondtears' question I would assume the following formula:

output = (heal * (1 + critrating) * 0.5) + (heal * (1 + critrating) * 1.12 * (1 + 1.5 * masteryrating))

(First part is Beacon Heal, 2nd Heal Target)

This gives you a rough idea of what a Single Heal will output on Beacon and on Heal targed in the advertised scenario.
It does not account for Overheal, Holy Light Usage or PoI which all would need further investigation.

However using this,
100 Mastery would mean the Heal coefficient is
* 1.6294
100 Crit and we get
* 1.6290

Compared to 1.6200 without any additional crit or mastery. This means, that in this scenario, Mastery outperforms Crit. However, the difference isn't that high (5.7%) and the fact that Mastery does not affect Holy Radiance should at some Point overcome this advantage of Mastery even in a fight where we are using such a Healing Strategy and use Holy Radiance only few times.

I do also doubt that the not considered facts - Overheal, Holy Light Usage and PoI - change too much of the result, as they somehow contradict each other, meaning Overheal favors Mastery, whereas Holy Light and PoI favor crit.

Matlab script used for numbers (Maybe this makes the formula a bit clearer):

function [ output ] = masterycrit( crit, mastery )
heal = 1; %Base Coefficient (uninteresting for comparison)
critrating = crit * 0.00005578; %Crit Rating conversion
masteryrating = mastery * 0.00005578; %Mastery Rating conversion

shieldamount = 1.5; %Percentage of each Point of Mastery increasing the Shield

output = (heal * (1 + critrating) * 0.5) + (heal * (1 + critrating) * 1.12 * (1 + shieldamount * masteryrating));
end

Comments and improvements/corrections appreciated!

Re� nholt · 06/11/11, 3:12 PM

Originally Posted by Daalpha

Comments and improvements/corrections appreciated!

Given your information on AoE heals not effecting Mastery as well as BoL I think crit might pull ahead with the buff to Speed of Light, allowing us aoe healing every 20s over 30s, also going into a new teir with higher mana pools we should be able to use it much closer to on cooldown that we were able before.

Gallahadh · 06/11/11, 8:06 PM

Originally Posted by jmayhall

I would agree it's a viable way to generate HP, however, if your reason for generating HP faster is so you can use LoD, you are essentially stacking with the melee to heal. In doing this, you would spend alot of time adjusting your position to use even use LoD. Alot of the time the tanks are in need of constant heals, I just dont see the practical use of CS in raids. You can still cast HL, and by the end of your cast, HS will be off CD, or very close to use.

Well, in my raiding i've stacked with the melee for almost all fights (ODS and certain others being exceptions) i do indeed use crusader strikes and holy shocks to generate holy power charges, coupled with the fact i reforge my spirit out for haster wherever practicable this also helps prevent me from going oom. although mostly the spell i'm using my holy power charges for is word of glory, i find it's a very useful instant cast direct heal especially when glyphed for.
Also, by stacking with the melee it makes my Holy Radience spell much more useful as the melee are generally already in a nice neat bundle and it can really take the strain off of the raid healers during high AoE damage.

Spacecadett · 06/12/11, 10:17 AM

Based on some (lets call it "elementary") testing I did on two Halfus HC guild runs, I came to realize that using CS while stacking close to the tanks (being a tank-designated healer myself) led to increased Holy Power generation of course but with a hugely decreased healing output. I found it more useful to cast HL or DL in between my Holy Shocks than casting CS and WoG. As jmayhall said, the practical use of CS in raid situations is minimal. In my humble opinion, CS is a waste of GCD and greately diminishes the healing output on the tank. Sadly, i don't have any solid math to back it up, but I might come up with something in the near future.
Any thoughts?

saboya · 06/12/11, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Spacecadett

Based on some (lets call it "elementary") testing I did on two Halfus HC guild runs, I came to realize that using CS while stacking close to the tanks (being a tank-designated healer myself) led to increased Holy Power generation of course but with a hugely decreased healing output. I found it more useful to cast HL or DL in between my Holy Shocks than casting CS and WoG. As jmayhall said, the practical use of CS in raid situations is minimal. In my humble opinion, CS is a waste of GCD and greately diminishes the healing output on the tank. Sadly, i don't have any solid math to back it up, but I might come up with something in the near future.
Any thoughts?

In my exprience I usually use CS when damage input is lower and/or I want to heal more efficiently... I also don't have the math to back it up, but I believe we save some mana by CS'ing and using more WoGs, while also getting mana from SoI.

Jaybird · 06/12/11, 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by saboya

In my exprience I usually use CS when damage input is lower and/or I want to heal more efficiently... I also don't have the math to back it up, but I believe we save some mana by CS'ing and using more WoGs, while also getting mana from SoI.

My napkin maths says that 3x CS's = 1x DL in mana. This means that your WoG from HP gained by 3xCS would need to equal 1x DL in power to make them worthwhile. In my crappy gear WoG hits (unbuffed) for around 16k, DL hits around 23k. If we take WoG as 30% more effective due to EG procs, 1.33 WoG ~= 20.8k.

This is very likely the wrong way to value CS, but according to this I believe you would be better off using the CS GCD's to just stand around auto-attacking.