[Holy]Cataclysm Holy Compendium (4.0.6) - Page 8

flyingtoastr · 12/25/10, 9:24 AM

Originally Posted by Risotto

I have notice several people have place 2 points into this talent and I am wondering why?

It is my understanding that Judgement is a melee attack and would only require 8% hit rating which is easily done with just placing 1 point into Enlighted Judgements due to the amount of spirit on our current gear.

You could easily move that point into Improved Judgement, so it can't be for the increased range and I wouldn't think an increase in self heals by 1000hp every 8 secs could justify the reasoning for placing the extra point in there.

I feel like I am missing something in my logic and was hoping you guys could enlighten me since several posters have the second point placed in this talent.

Judging while Seal of Insight is active nets you 10% of base mana (15% from the SoI ability minus 5% for the cost of the Judgement). It's very important to be doing it as often as possible for the regen.

Enlightened Judgements gives "free" healing to both yourself and the Beacon target every time you judge. Since you're going to be judging as often as possible, the heals, while not huge (4.5k-ish on myself in my terrible gear, with 2.2k transfered to the beacon), do add up. It turns a regen GCD into a regen and heal GCD.

Azshira · 12/25/10, 9:38 AM

Originally Posted by Malleus

Speaking anecdotally: I healed two attempts on 10-man Argaloth in identical gear. The first time I did not melee and used a cast-wait pattern; I went OOM around the 5-minute mark and we wiped. The second time I meleed where possible and threaded CS in between heals and, while it was tight, I was able through SoI procs and extra HoPo to sustain my mana up to the enrage timer (kill was about 5 seconds within). While this is not enough of a sample to judge the value of using CS, I found the difference sufficiently noticeable to warrant collection of more precise figures for SoI mana return. I shall supply these as soon as I have them.

I'm just going to post 2 seperate posts for easier viewing. One takes on a raid boss example and how meleeing the boss in question and smart HP stacking achieves greater mana retention and my second post will be regarding the secondary stats debate. I am no math expert so any numbers I use are purely from in-game figures.

If I may also use your example of Argaloth 10man (hence the quote above). I'm taking 2 seperate attempts as my example.

For attempt A: I bearly meleed the boss and used my mana a bit more recklessly (I guess), than be a little more conservative and smart play, however, I did use my Judgements on cooldown. I was struggling for mana come 4 minutes into the fight.

Now for attempt B: I meleed the boss and used judgements on cooldown and also using mana a bit more clever such as Holy Shock and such to gain Holy Power and then using this at 3 Holy Power for a fully effective Light of Dawn, obviously using Holy Radiance after with Light of Dawn after his slash attack. Doing this and repeating this (even without mana potions and Divine Plea), I ended the fight after 4 minutes and 31 seconds with approximately 85% mana. None of my group was endanger throughout the encounter with this approach. I also was responsible for cleansing but I decided to use a glyphed Cleanse to help out a bit on the mana just in case.

Attempt B shows that stacking Holy Power to heal the raid and using SoI to gain constant mana back from Judgements and melee hits will prove the smartest move for us Paladins, instead of just spamming any way we wish. I did not use Crusader Strike. I'm running as 2396 combat mana regen un-buffed.

jdh79 · 12/25/10, 11:02 AM

I am wondering what people are thinking/planning in regards to the T11 set bonuses. Our tier gear seems to be itemized really sub-optimally; none of the 5 pieces have haste on them; they all are either spirit/crit or spirit/mastery. However, there are offset plate haste/spirit items available for the head, chest, gloves, and legs slots.

The 2 piece bonus (2% crit to HL) seems very mediocre; HL crits don't generate any special procs or synergies and HL overall, at least on most of my logs is a small percentage (less than 10% normally) of healing done. The 4 piece bonus is interesting; it's worth 540 spirit if using Holy Radiance on CD. On most fights, we won't be using it close to on cooldown, but will instead be waiting for burst raid AoE to happen though, so the actual value is probably more like 300-400 spirit depending on the fight. Using T11 4 piece probably would mean losing 400-500 haste in favor of crit/mastery, so I am not sure that it's worth it.

wildclaw · 12/25/10, 11:49 AM

On the spirit/haste/mastery/crit issue. I did some math on the subject today, which made me start doubt if haste really is any stronger than crit and mastery. Assuming the following variables:

Int - Intelligence
HPD - Number of HL needed to reach the size of DL. Difficult to give an exact estimate due to all the PotI and BoL interaction, but it is somewhere between 2 and 3.
HPH - Max amount of HL per hundred seconds. I could use haste instead, but it just makes the formulas larger. And since everything but Spirit depends on it, it really isn't that interesting except for completion.
AHPS - Average HPS as a ratio to HPS from HL spam only. It should of course be bigger than 1 unless all you do is spam Holy Light, but exactly how big depends on how many non-Holy Light you are able to cast, and how much of the time you spend casting non healing spells.

Anyway, with those variables in place, and with the assumption that the available mana for a Holy Paladin generally determines the HL/DL distribution, and has little effect on other things, I get that per 100 seconds and 180 points/rating you can get the following amount of extra healing in terms of HL size while using the same amount of mana:

Spirit: Sqrt(Int) * 60.21 * (HPD-1) / 4919
Haste: 0.015*HPH * (1- 2107*(HPD-1)/4919)
Crit: Haste/5 + AHPS * HPH * 0.005
Mastery: Up to AHPS * HPH * 0.01

The spirit formula simply represents using mana to convert a HL to a DL (4919 is the mana cost for completely switching one HL to a DL). The haste formula is the extra (part of a) HL you can squeeze in due to the extra haste, minus its mana cost that can no longer be used to convert a HL to a DL. The crit formula is the Infusion of Light part (somewhere in the area of .25-.3% haste) plus the general healing boost. The mastery is just a general healing boost.

Looking at it this way, spirit is way up on top, but haste no longer look that good unless you are doing most of your healing with Holy Light. Haste is still an option for reliable output, but for long term throughput it suffers because of the extra mana spent.

Hulabaloon · 12/25/10, 11:53 AM

The 4-piece bonus is unusally good. I plan to take 4 pieces and reforge crit /mastery into haste.

Looking at it this way, spirit is way up on top, but haste no longer look that good unless you are doing most of your healing with Holy Light. Haste is still an option for reliable output, but for long term throughput it suffers because of the extra mana spent.

Assuming your math is correct - regarding crit, it's the age-old problem. If it comes close on paper, we still need to consider the in-game factors. Are you always going to be leaving enough headroom that IF a spell crits you will gain the full benefit of it? Is it worth perpetually leaving people closer to death so you can gain as much from crit as math on paper says you should? Not to mention that in a raid scenario someone else will have healed your target by then anyway.

To give a more accurate impression of secondary stats, I think you would need to include an approximation of how much crit is likely to be wasted overheal, and what % of mastery shields are likely to be unused or overwritten. With those factored in, my hunch is that haste would still be superior to crit and mastery.

Azshira · 12/25/10, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Hulabaloon

The 4-piece bonus is unusally good. I plan to take 4 pieces and reforge crit /mastery into haste.

We'll be using HoR very often so the mana back is of great use. However, the other pieces of gear in those slots are exceptionally good. I'd really need math to back up which is more useful... off set or 4 set items. there is a great BiS post here: Home | Best in Slot Holy Paladin Resource on what really is our BiS currently and they give 2 variations on each slot and in each of the set slots is our set bonus, so I really guess either or is good. However, I'd love if someone could calculate how valuable the 4 set is to us currently, I predict it will be great since we pretty much use HoR on cooldown on many fights, that's a lot of 'free' spirit.

Ionel · 12/25/10, 2:33 PM

The greatest advantage I see with the T11 four set bonus is that it is a controllable proc. If used with Core of Ripeness - Item - World of Warcraft in conjunction with Mana Tide Totem (and possibly another trinket spirit proc) it is possible to net a very large amount of mana back during the course of a fight.

Using my own stats of 4027 int and 2151 spirit self buffed:
Normal combat regen - 2312
Non-MTT w/ T11 4set - 4052
Non-MTT w/ set and Core of Ripeness - 6124

Regen with mana tide - 8093
MTT w/ T11 bonus - 14188
MTT w/ T11 and Core of Ripness - 21434

MTT lasts 12s, 4set lasts 10s, and CoR lasts 20s.
As you can see, stacking spirit procs under the effects of Mana Tide Totem will net ~50k mana. On a side note, MTT is on a shorter cooldown than it was last expansion, meaning we can have a MTT up 2 times (per shaman) in a 5 minute fight.

Shldnhearth · 12/26/10, 10:07 AM

I just wanted to make a note that Glyph of Divinity is returning 20% mana when lay on hands is used (on yourself or someone else) instead of the advertised 10%. That's over 20,000 mana returned for most paladins in a raid setting, making this glyph quite usefull for any fights where you'll have Lay on Hands off cooldown.

Azshira · 12/26/10, 3:29 PM

Originally Posted by Shldnhearth

I just wanted to make a note that Glyph of Divinity is returning 20% mana when lay on hands is used (on yourself or someone else) instead of the advertised 10%. That's over 20,000 mana returned for most paladins in a raid setting, making this glyph quite usefull for any fights where you'll have Lay on Hands off cooldown.

Is this intended?

Also I'm sure for any boss you'll have it off cooldown for every attempt, if not most.

DiamondTear · 12/26/10, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by Ionel

Regen with mana tide - 8093
MTT w/ T11 bonus - 14188
MTT w/ T11 and Core of Ripness - 21434

Just to clarify, are you saying that you gain 14188 mana if you use HR with the tier bonus, making you actually gain mana because it costs 9368?

Capstone · 12/26/10, 7:25 PM

It's pretty clear from his post that he regained 8093 mana from the totem, but 14188 if he pushed HR during MTT; thus the gain from HR bonus was 6095. Not enough to make the spell free, but enough to make pushing HR during MTT a no-brainer unless there is zero damage to heal.

Shldnhearth · 12/26/10, 7:31 PM

Originally Posted by Azshira

Is this intended?

Also I'm sure for any boss you'll have it off cooldown for every attempt, if not most.

My guess is that it's a leftover from wotlk when the glyph provided double mana returns if lay on hands was used on yourself, it just works all the time now.

Malleus · 12/27/10, 6:49 AM

Originally Posted by Capstone

It's pretty clear from his post that he regained 8093 mana from the totem, but 14188 if he pushed HR during MTT; thus the gain from HR bonus was 6095. Not enough to make the spell free, but enough to make pushing HR during MTT a no-brainer unless there is zero damage to heal.

Ionel's numbers aren't the mana returns, they're the MP5 you gain. His assertion that you'd net 50k mana is completely wrong, though; it appears to be based on getting the full regen for the duration of the longest component instead of the shortest. The T11 buff only lasts 10 seconds, so you'd only get twice the difference from totem-only regen. Without Core of Ripeness the mana gain is trivial, but you would at least get a free HR. With the Core, however, your net gain would be just over 17k mana.

Trabausius · 12/27/10, 8:52 AM

Still, with the mana return from the 4pc, is it worth getting? Dropping the haste gear for it? Cause we all agree the 2pc is pretty bad.

Ionel · 12/27/10, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by Ionel

The greatest advantage I see with the T11 four set bonus is that it is a controllable proc. If used with Core of Ripeness - Item - World of Warcraft in conjunction with Mana Tide Totem (and possibly another trinket spirit proc) it is possible to net a very large amount of mana back during the course of a fight.

Using my own stats of 4027 int and 2151 spirit self buffed:
Normal combat regen - 2312
Non-MTT w/ T11 4set - 4052
Non-MTT w/ set and Core of Ripeness - 6124

Regen with mana tide - 8093
MTT w/ T11 bonus - 14188
MTT w/ T11 and Core of Ripness - 21434

MTT lasts 12s, 4set lasts 10s, and CoR lasts 20s.
As you can see, stacking spirit procs under the effects of Mana Tide Totem will net ~50k mana. On a side note, MTT is on a shorter cooldown than it was last expansion, meaning we can have a MTT up 2 times (per shaman) in a 5 minute fight.

These values are not the amount of mana you will receive, they are the values of mp5 you have with each buff active or not active. The purpose of this was to demonstrate how stacking spirit bonuses during mana tide totem nets you much more mana than using them individually, and how the T11 four set bonus plays into the equation.

To calculate how much mana was recieve during MTT i took 21434 (the mp5 value of MTT with all procs) and multiplied by 2.4 (the amount of 5 second intervals in 12 second), since MTT lasts 12 seconds. Very rough calculations, i know, and any help in correcting my math is greatly appreciated.