Excuse my skepticism but do you actually have concerns you want people to address or did you just want to link this log? Realistically, your damage was good enough for a 37th ranked parse. Chances are most people above you had better RNG, have better gear, or had more relevant buffs given that its a 10 man. You had 11 fading lights that kill, you said you died at the end, you don't have a gurthalak(even though your weapon is 410 gurth is just so RNG it can be obnoxious some times). Only thing I noticed is that you could clean up your reforging, but you may have gotten gear recently and just not done that yet. Honestly you seem to have a firm enough grasp on the class to break down your own logs but if you really want me to dig through it let me know.
Well, we had around 8 attempts or so and it was consistent around 35-36k, and comparing it to some others above me it just seemed alittle low, I thought as you say they might have had some better RNG in terms of Divine Purpose or this Gurthalak mind flay thing, but I wasn't so sure that would be the difference between 36 and 42k.
I posted recently looking for assistance with dps, and received some very valuable advice and assistance. Since then I have changed my rotation somewhat, and have been concentrating on optimising use of CS and trying to keep Inquisition up as much as possible.
I am finding it difficult to make any real improvements with the latter two objectives - I feel it's probably principally a matter of my age and its undoubted influence on reaction speed. Lacking the time to do too much research and or fiddling with addons, UI etc. I'd decided to settle for having less than optimal dps and jsut concentrate on enjoying the game - relative to the other dps in my guild I perform well.
However - in a recent raid I was shocked to see the difference in dps between myself and another pally who usually tanks, but was dps on this night.
(not sure if this link will work fully with characters inserted, or just go to the Wowheroes "compare" page)
The major difference I can see is that he has the 4-piece set bonus - quite an appreciable damage boost - but almost 6k dps overall? And on the Yor'sahj kill, over 7k more!
So - I did a little analysis, as your previous help has taught me how, expecting to find his use of CS and Inquisition uptime considerably better than mine: but no! On the Yor'sahj kill he had 69 CS in 9 minutes 49 seconds, I had 96! His inquisition was marginally better at 84.2% compared to my 81.4% - neither very good. What really stands out is his number of TV - 65 compared to my 49 - presumably this is an effect of the 2-piece set bonus, HP granted by Judgement.
So - are the set bonuses really that good? Can I really expect to see a 30% dps increase when (and if) I get the four piece bonus, even if it's LFR gear? Or am I missing something else?
It's hard to tell for sure, but a couple things I see.. your censure uptime is low, even though it's your highest damage. I'm guessing that you let it fall off Yor'sahj while running over to slimes. DPS overall should be high enough that you don't have to run over immediately, and you can use judgement both to speed you up getting there once you go, while keeping your stack up on Yorsahj. Also due to the 2 pc bonus you may be getting too many CS per TV, because you have to wait a split second after judging to get the HP from it. If you are at 2 HP and you judge, just know that your next attack will be TV, not another CS, and anticipate that. TV is doubly important to use the most when you add hand of light. Here's a log of mine for Yor'sahj 10m. I have 2pc (I'm mainly a tank, but DPS on the 1 tank fights), and am not the best ret in the world, but it might help you compare some usage and uptimes. World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
They're good, but not quite that good (maybe more like 15 to 20 percent total for both bonuses). What you didn't notice is that on Yor'sahj he was switching to Seal of Righteousness and using Divine Storm on the adds spawned by the black ooze. This is a very noticeable dps increase on a fight with that many adds for a good 15 seconds or so at a stretch.
It's hard to compare you guys on your Zon'ozz wipes due to early deaths and very short fight length. You are correct in attributing his high number of TVs relatively to Judgement. In World of Logs, you can see this HP gain on the Buffs Gained screen as Virtuous Empowerment in the Power gains section. For Yor'sahj he gained 49 holy power from Judgement, which is 16 TVs, exactly the difference you noted.
It's hard to tell for sure, but a couple things I see.. your censure uptime is low, even though it's your highest damage. I'm guessing that you let it fall off Yor'sahj while running over to slimes. DPS overall should be high enough that you don't have to run over immediately, and you can use judgement both to speed you up getting there once you go, while keeping your stack up on Yorsahj. Also due to the 2 pc bonus you may be getting too many CS per TV, because you have to wait a split second after judging to get the HP from it. If you are at 2 HP and you judge, just know that your next attack will be TV, not another CS, and anticipate that. TV is doubly important to use the most when you add hand of light. Here's a log of mine for Yor'sahj 10m. I have 2pc (I'm mainly a tank, but DPS on the 1 tank fights), and am not the best ret in the world, but it might help you compare some usage and uptimes. World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Thanks, Haelfdane. You make a good point re. censure; in future I'll try to wait until I've judged before running to slimes (though our raid dps isn't that good, bear in mind I'm #2 overall even with my performance, often #1 if Maton isn't dps, and we occasionally fail to kill slime before it reaches boss)
I don't understand your comment re. the 2 pc bonus and judgement granting HP - it's Maton that has the LFR gear set bonus, I don't. As far as I'm aware I don't get HP from judgement, am I missing something fundamental?
They're good, but not quite that good (maybe more like 15 to 20 percent total for both bonuses). What you didn't notice is that on Yor'sahj he was switching to Seal of Righteousness and using Divine Storm on the adds spawned by the black ooze. This is a very noticeable dps increase on a fight with that many adds for a good 15 seconds or so at a stretch.
Actually I chatted with Maton after the raid about our relative performance and he told me about switching seals - I've always assumed that to be a nett dps loss - I do try to use divine storm whilst multiple adds are up but not in this fight - I will in future.
Originally Posted by Grigorim
It's hard to compare you guys on your Zon'ozz wipes due to early deaths and very short fight length. You are correct in attributing his high number of TVs relatively to Judgement. In World of Logs, you can see this HP gain on the Buffs Gained screen as Virtuous Empowerment in the Power gains section. For Yor'sahj he gained 49 holy power from Judgement, which is 16 TVs, exactly the difference you noted.
Thanks for the confirmation, and the help with WoL analysis - still got a lot to learn there!
Thanks, Haelfdane. You make a good point re. censure; in future I'll try to wait until I've judged before running to slimes (though our raid dps isn't that good, bear in mind I'm #2 overall even with my performance, often #1 if Maton isn't dps, and we occasionally fail to kill slime before it reaches boss)
I don't understand your comment re. the 2 pc bonus and judgement granting HP - it's Maton that has the LFR gear set bonus, I don't. As far as I'm aware I don't get HP from judgement, am I missing something fundamental?
Ah, my mistake, and that really does explain a lot regarding who has set bonuses. So yes, the bonuses do have a significant impact if used correctly. Grigorim is right about using DS over CS when you have 4+ adds out (and dropping cons). Don't confuse that with seal twisting though, keep vengeance running, just hit DS instead of CS. Regarding judging before running to slimes, you want to time it properly. If you judge while still too close to the boss, you won't get the movement speed burst. Ideally you'd like to head for the slime and judge the boss at max range to refresh your censor stack and then get to the slime quickly. If your ranged DPS is having that much trouble with the slimes without your full-time help, you'll have trouble, especially on later bosses.
Don't confuse that with seal twisting though, keep vengeance running, just hit DS instead of CS.
There's no confusion, SoR is better than SoT in an AoE situation. You can "twist" back and forth if you want to keep your Censure rolling on a single target and you're going to be AoEing for more than 15 seconds, but adds shouldn't really be up long enough to make it worth it on Yor'sahj. Just pop SoR when adds are spawning and go back to SoT when switching back to full-time damage on the boss (or less than 3 adds are still alive).
There's no confusion, SoR is better than SoT in an AoE situation. You can "twist" back and forth if you want to keep your Censure rolling on a single target and you're going to be AoEing for more than 15 seconds, but adds shouldn't really be up long enough to make it worth it on Yor'sahj. Just pop SoR when adds are spawning and go back to SoT when switching back to full-time damage on the boss (or less than 3 adds are still alive).
In your scenario, ignore the above. While it produces more total DPS, it's not accelerating the main goal of killing the boss. As you've said, you're typically your raid's top DPS, which means overall raid damage is lower than could be desired. For your raid rather than inflating your numbers it would be more advantageous for the raid to ensure maximum damage on the boss.
2 piece tier is generally about 5% damage increase and 4 piece another 15% (total 20%). This tier is a little unusual, it is more like 10%+10%. It is highly advantageous to try for even LFR tier bonuses. If you have Firelands tier, you should not break 2 or 4 piece for DS non-tier. Proper migration should be 4 Firelands to 2 FL + 2 DS to 4 DS. Even LFR DS Tier should beat Heroic Firelands Tier. Make sure you're running LFR weekly looking for tier and Gur'thalak - those pieces of gear will benefit your real raiding.
84% and 81% Inquisition is terribly low. Top end Ret can get 98-99% (never dropped, those few first seconds before you have HP do count) and most middle of the road get 92-94% up-time. Without the Judgement tier bonus aim to refresh anywhere under 4 seconds remaining. It is perfectly acceptable to refresh with 1 or 2 HP rather than let Inq drop off entirely. With reasonable values of Haste you'll find a 1 HP Inq is the perfect period of time to generate 3 HP for a full duration and with 2 piece Tier you'll find 3 HP even easier and faster and can lower the threshold to about 2 seconds.
Even on Yor you can have a fully normal Inq up-time. Moving to/from slimes you're generally sitting on one or two HP and can refresh during the run time while Judge is on cooldown. Or if you've got a DivPurp proc and know you'll be out of melee for 6+ seconds - don't let it be wasted and instead refresh Inq regardless of remaining duration.
Finally, my guild had issues with Ultraxion for the first week or two and we have the DPS to easily kill slime before it's near Yor. Issues with DPS on slime foreshadow later instance woes. You need to encourage your guildmates to visit their own theorycrafting threads and do what they can to increase their numbers. Also make sure they're doing the right thing - on some slimes you have DPS doing remarkably less than they do on other slimes (without being dead). That failure to swap on time really hurts a raid.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
Thanks to all for the responses, most useful as usual.
Exemplar, you make an excellent point re. the raid objective v. personal dps - next time I'm out dps'd on Yor'sahj I'll smugly announce I was sacrificing personal glory for the good of the raid - everyone will believe me, I'm sure!
The advice on set bonuses is excellent. I've been almost supernaturally unlucky with armour tokens, just never seem to drop for me, plus we never got Ragnaros down yet so no tier 12 helm anyway. I've run LFR (once) with similar lack of fortune, and have been concentrating on VP from new dungeons for 397 non-tier pieces - I'll shift my priorities to LFR and just keep plugging away for the set piece bonuses, which are clearly more advantageous than I'd thought.
I'll pass on your advice also re. our overall raid dps, though I suspect our problems are not easily resolved. We are very much a non-hardcore guild, with the emphasis on fun rather than achievement, and with fewer raiding members than we'd like, but that's not a complaint as the guild ethos is exactly suited to my personal circumstance. We can't all be heroes!
Again, many thanks, and especially for this thread which enables myself and others like me who don't have the time (or perhaps the inclination) to indulge in intense theorycrafting to benefit from your accumulated wisdom without being in conflict with the site ethos.
I've been through this thread and the ret thread trying to see what I'm doing wrong, but I can't figure it out. Here is a log from heroic ultraxion 10 last night:
Common advice I've seen is to check average time between Crusader Strikes, and inquisition uptime. The fight length was 5:15 (315 seconds) with 71 CS. Average time between CS is 4.44 seconds. Inquisition uptime was 95% (I let it fall one time while I was in the other realm). The only mistake I know of was not swapping my flask from int to strength after heroic hagaara. Any help would be great, I hate being bottom DPS. I'm hoping that the answer isn't just "your gear sucks," but that might be my biggest problem.
I've been through this thread and the ret thread trying to see what I'm doing wrong, but I can't figure it out. Here is a log from heroic ultraxion 10 last night:
Well I won't say your gear sucks but you are at a fair deficit to some of the other people you're comparing yourself to. On that particular parse your Gurth tentacle proc damage was about as abysmal as it can get, but so was the warriors. Initial hunch is that your raid is standing too far back and your tentacle isn't mind flaying most of the times when it procs. However, upon further log inspection you only have 2 summon events, I honestly don't even know what to say to that. That's pretty shit luck.
Now big problems with your character, under hit cap and under expertise cap. I thought it might just have been because you got some new loot and hadn't reforged it yet but either way you fought the boss under these caps. There's 2 missed CS's 2 missed censure ticks, and a melee miss and dodge. You're certainly not helping yourself at all not having these capped.
To give you an idea, I imported your character in to SimC, set it to ultraxion mode, modified the action list to correspond to ultraxion, removed the flask since you said you didn't have one, and modified the buffs/debuffs to correspond to your raid composition. When all was said and done it has you at 32.9k dps. You did 31.4k. 1700 of this DPS is supposed to come from gurth, yours only mustered about 600 dps on that kill. So you can see when everything is factored in correctly you're not that far off from a simulated average performance.
You don't like being on the bottom? That's reasonable. To have a fighting chance you need to fix your reforging, use the correct flask if you have to swap throughout the raid, and try to close some of the gear gap between you and the rest of your DPS. The latter is really a guild decision so you may not have any control over that. Having only 3 pieces from a set isn't doing you any favors, if you manage to get 4 piece at some point that should be a big help. Particularly if it's legs as yours are 378. A new weapon (403 gurth/410 axe) and trinket and I think you could find yourself back in the running. I'm sure "get better gear" wasn't the answer you're hoping for, and no one can make items drop, but that's the position you find yourself in when you're comparing your DPS to others in the raid. Realistically you should only be concerned with performing near your character's theoretical maximum. If loot doesn't drop or it isn't awarded to you, that isn't really anything you can control.
P.S. Just to give you a realistic analysis of what you're up against. Your warrior outgears you in just about every slot, including 4 piece, weapon, trinkets, and was getting tricks. Combine that with H Ultrax being particularly strong for warriors with all the rage gen from incoming damage. Two fire mages which are by far the strongest single target DPS right now (thus the nerf incoming) one with legendary, one without, both outgear you. Rogue same story, stronger of the DPS this tier, mainhand nok, OH stage 2 dagger, better gear in general. And your hunter which is arguably your best geared DPS in that raid. Hunters may rather mediocre right now, and Ultrax is rough on them being unable to trap, but that's still a lot of gear for you to overcome.
Hello, I'm just trying to squeeze in any dps I can I guess. I'm not really too sure how to start off my rotation besides using the clcinfo rotation I have set. Also best time to pop AW/guardian, I normally wait a few sec in after I get full stacks of my trinket and whatever buffs, that seem about right? Any info from the logs would be great. Thank you.
Hello, I'm just trying to squeeze in any dps I can I guess. I'm not really too sure how to start off my rotation besides using the clcinfo rotation I have set. Also best time to pop AW/guardian, I normally wait a few sec in after I get full stacks of my trinket and whatever buffs, that seem about right? Any info from the logs would be great. Thank you.
Your question is a little open ended and broad so I'm not going to really dig in depth through the logs but I will throw out some general pointers. There isn't one hard and fast answer to how to use your CDs, it's really fight dependent. On a fight like H Ultraxion many people, myself included, still use the T11 prot guardian trick. So you pre-pot, guardian pre-pull, let the guardian build stacks and when it has 20 seconds left on it wings/zealotry. You generally hero at the start of H Ultraxion too so this works well. The only caveat is when using creche, if this procs right away I'll generally wings earlier to ensure a more consistent line-up.
I'll follow the same strategy on a fight like H Zon'ozz, use wings/zeal 2nd time on CD, but then delay the next use of wings/zeal until guardian is back. This lines up exactly when black blood phase ends for the 3rd time, we pop hero, the damage debuff is maxed out and we burn hardest. A lot of these 6 minute fights work well for getting two guardians in. Now if you do fights on normal these timings may not work as well. Also, some fights don't line up well for this at all. Morchok on normal or heroic is generally too short for two guardians so I'll save it for the end when I know we heroism. Hagara has a damage debuff phase so you'll want to focus CDs for that. Same story with madness, use them on the cataclysm cast.
Ultimately it is best to experiment/research how cooldowns will line up for your particular raid while you're learning fights. When we're in progression on a new fight I try to pay particular attention to the timings of when we're DPSing versus moving versus when we're heroing etc. It won't be the same for everyone. Doing Ultraxion on normal your kill was a little over 4 minutes so my whole strategy might not be very good for you. Just know that when you're stacking guardian with wings you want to wings/zeal when guardian has 20 seconds left for the most optimal overlap.
Lastly, drop selfless healer and put those 2 points in eye for an eye. A lot of boss abilities actually proc this and it can be good for a .5%-1% damage increase on average.
Just a small observation of value only to anyone else as dumb as me......
I've had problems recently with uptime on inquisition. I noted that it often happens at the start of a fight when I'm waiting for 3 HP in order to pop Wings/Zealotry, I'll need to refresh Inquisition at the same time. No problem, you say, Zealotry doesn't USE any HP, so pop Zealotry and the three HP are still there for Inquisition.
Well, not if you use a macro to pop zealotry/wings AND cast a TV! And spam the macro button. Result - HP gone and I have to wait, then lose a TV to refresh Inquisition.
Mental note - don't blindly copy and use macros, even when they come from EJ, without fully understanding what they do and how to use them properly!
Unless the timing of the fight is going to lose you an extra AW+Zeal at the very end, I find that 1HP Inq, 3 HP Inq, AW+Zeal is generally the best sequence. 1 HP Inq then straight to AW+Zeal leads to the problem you mentioned. Presuming you are no longer running 4 piece T12, then your Zealotry is only 20 seconds. Spending the 3HP you use to engage it (at the same time as AW) on Inq instead of TV is a notable loss of damage.
3HP Inq, build 3HP (or lucky DivPurp) to AW+Zeal should give you an entire AW+Zeal phase under Inq. Then once the CDs wear off, worst case you 1HP to keep Inq running appropriately. Never forget the +20% damage from AW. You're not just losing 1 TV, you're losing 1.2 TV.
However, agreed on the base idea to not every macro is for everyone. Any macro or mod should not be blindly used or followed. Different folks have different gameplay styles and suiting your UI (including macros) to your specific style will always be better than trying to follow some sort of template or cookie cutter UI.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
Second off, I have a parse I took from last night's raid and wanted advice from other people on what I could be doing differently on these fights, especially Yor'sahj. I am going to link to three specific fights because I would like help on most fights, although I realize it's quite a few things to cover, but I was hoping mainly for particular help on Yor'sahj, Zon'ozz and Ultraxion. I tanked on Morchok so disregard that parse. I believe on my Ultraxion parse I did decent, but I am posting it here because I was hoping to get more insight as to what I could have done differently such as if my inqusition uptime was sufficient. My main concern is with Yor'sahj, I have noticed a lot of ret paladins tend to do a lot more DPS than I do and seal of righteousness/DS are much higher percentages of damage for them than it is for me. I am unsure if it's because I just do not get enough DS's in during the encounter or if the composition of our raid kills the adds too quickly to allow for me to get sufficient damage in on the adds. Thank you for your time and consideration!
Although I dont think my dps is Terrible for my ilvl, I believe there is lots of room for improvement, I am seeing other ret paladins doing much, much more dps then I am at the same ilvl. I Don't believe it is my PC, I run 30-50 FPS on most fights, and my Latency rarely hits higher then 110ms (home and world).
Hai, Any holy Palas out there able to give me any tips?? I have half decent gear and always strive to rank but never do!!! I try to organise my CD's as best as possible, maybe my spell priorities are wrong but any help would be appreciated.
Hiya, I was hoping to get some input for my reforging options. My choice comes down crit vs mastery - granted, the answer would be the latter in most situations but my guild cannot always run with a 5% crit buff and occasionally, we're missing BoK/Mark aswell.
What my numbers come down to are: 1600 crit, 2383 mast vs 1751 crit, 2197 mast
I know mastery is considered superior but I find myself covetously eyeing the extra crit. Opinions? Here's my character sheet if it'll help any. Nyctalopia @ Steamwheedle Cartel - Game Guide - World of Warcraft
As a side note, is 27k on Ultrax any good? I know RNG factors heavily but just as a benchmark...
I just want to put it out that this has been the most helpful of the threads on this site for me (and that says a LOT since this place is chock full of useful information).
Thanks to the folks that are putting in time to look through logs and post suggestions, and to those brave enough to post their parses.
This is a great example of joining theory and practice, and I hope it continues.
There's a Ret Paladin in there who blows me away. However, I am hoping that a lot of it has to do with gear. I know my gear is low, and I know my weapon isn't enchanted.
When I do a compare bot against him, the biggest thing that jump out to me is my lack of a two set bonus, which I am obviously working towards.
My Inq uptime is slightly worse than his, and not great, overall. I am still working on making sure I have 3 HP near when I need to refresh it.
My total crusader strikes for the whole LFR was within one of his, so I believe I am using every opportunity to hit CS.
I'd love some feedback from some more experienced Rets.
Trying to increase my dps. I feel it is low for my gear and iLevel. Another ret pally lesser geared than me beats me on dps. Goods @ Darrowmere - Game Guide - World of Warcraft here is my armory link. I use CLCret and my rotations are as follows:
Normal: inqa inqr cs jhp inqrdp tvdp exoud tvhp exo how hw
Zeal: inqa inqr cs inqrdp tvdp exoud tvhp exo how hw
3-3-3 j clash 0
i used wowreforge.com and there stat weights for ret pally to reforge my gear.
Any help and suggestions are greatly appreciated.
12/23/11, 7:07 AM
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