Just to put things in perspective the interview where GC states that profession bonuses would not be updated is found on tankspot
← Click Here
L: Will we be seeing epic gems in 4.3?
GS: Great question, and yes, you will! The way we're hoping to set it up, and we kind of have this working but things could change before we go live, is when you kill a boss on normal or heroic mode, each player gets a geode, and when they open the geode there's a chance they may find an epic gem inside. If not, it'll have blue gems or something like that. We really want it to feel like an individual reward, and not something that the raid leader gets to have fun in deciding who gets the gems, or they all go to the guild bank or something. We really want it to feel like an individual reward.
They'll be somewhat rare. It may take the entire content cycle before someone has replaced every red gem they have, but they won't be so rare that you won't see them.
L: How is that going to work with profession bonuses? Blacksmithing with its extra sockets, assuming that you could get ahold of a full set of epic gems, seems like it would all of a sudden become the best profession.
GS: I think the epic gems are like 10 stat points over the current ones, so it's a nice boost, but hopefully it won't push everyone towards Blacksmithing.
L: So you'd only end up with like 20 extra Strength as a Blacksmith.
GS: Yeah, something like that.
The reason Jewelcrafting gems were upgraded was, apparently, not to put it on par with Blacksmith but rather to avoid it from becoming "useless", as Jewelcrafting gems would give you a +54 bonus if you were fully epic gemmed. This also enforces GC's statement of not updating the profession bonuses, as with the new epic gems, Blacksmiths will still get a +20 stat bonus over other professions.
The OP is missing Glyph of Judgement from the Glyphs-section.
Personally I would consider it a must-have Glyph, being the only Prime-glyph that increases both DPS and survivability (With the 2pcT13 that is)
Especially since threat is neglible and the CS-glyph doesn't provide THAT much additional DPS. So GoShotR/GoJ/GoSoT seems to be the best all-around Glyph-setup.
Sorry for the slow update, been under the weather for a few days so I'm putting in a bunch of corrections and updates from various folks now. In particular:
- Thanks for finding the quote, Eskostar. I still find it a little hard to believe they're going to go with a plan that will, in the long run, clearly make BS the best profession while also making JC clearly the best profession up until you get to that point, but the quote is pretty cut and dried, so I'll make some references to that fact.
- Bunch of changes suggested by Theck and others on the Rotation section (which I agree is probably the ugliest section atm) and some further changes to professions
- Not sure how I let that food error slip though but obviously I did, so that needs fixing
- Adding a quick blurb on the state of the t13 2 and 4 piece sets plus other 4.3 changes
- DonTirri, your point on the survival value of the J glyph is kind of interesting. I can't really focus on this right now, but if a J does 15k on average, or a 3750 shield with 2 piece, so the glyph would save you ~375 damage every 9 seconds, or about ~42 dps. Anyone know off the top of their head how many itemization points worth of Mastery it would take to save that much damage on a boss/difficulty/raid size of your choosing?
The amount of Mastery needed to negate ~42 DPS would be very small. We gain about .0125% block chance from a single Mastery rating, and every boss this tier has the capability of doing at least 50k hits before block. A block will negate 15k damage in that case. If we take a boss that swings every 2 seconds for 5 minutes, we get 150 attacks. Blocking a single one of these would mean negating 50 dps. To block one of those hits we'd need an extra .66_% block on average, or about 53 Mastery rating. Scale that down to negating ~42 DPS and we're at 39.28 Mastery rating.
In short, on a boss that does 50k damage every 2 seconds for 5 minutes, assuming Judgement's average hit is 15k, the glyph would equal 39.28 Mastery rating.
I've added a short bit on the value of DS/HoP (I miss BoP) in conjunction with fixates, and I've also treaded into slightly dangerous territory by suggesting people start stacking Stamina once they hit block cap. Obviously, this is subject to serious potential revision once we see T13 fight mechanics, but I believe its probably currently the best policy.
If anyone feels they have a strong case for stacking Avoidance instead, I'd be curious to hear it.
If anyone feels they have a strong case for stacking Avoidance instead, I'd be curious to hear it.
I think ill have to agree with you on the stamina part. With my gear, a soft mix of heroic and normal loot from firelands im almost at the 102.4%. (With buffs considered i would be by using elixir), with the next tier comming up I would get above that with a few upgrades.
Last edited by Evilunclebill : 10/13/11 at 5:24 AM.
You should have as much Stamina as content requires IMO. I run with around 200k HP raid-buffed and that seems enough for any 10H encounter at least. 25H could use a bit more. It's relative to how much spike damage and how much room you want to give to your healers.
TPS = Irrelevant right now. Unless you're a 10M tank and has to help with DPS, it doesn't really matter.
It's alll about your healers and the encounters you're facing. If the healers have to move during a heavy damage situation, if you have enough cooldowns for most of the abilities... There's no magic formula.
I'd argue that Stam/EH is still superior to avoidance in almost all situations. There are three possible scenarios we could consider:
1) Able to be 2-shot (or less).
2) Able to take 3-5 melee hits without dying
3) Able to take 6+ melee hits without dying
Situation (1) favors EH pretty strongly. When you can be 2-shot, overall damage taken and healer mana conservation are the last things you'll be thinking about. That's a situation where you're EH-deficient, so your first goal would be to increase your EH so that you can't be 2-shot anymore, provided that's possible. Adding EH means you buy your healers time, potentially giving them another boss swing timer to work with and allowing them to queue smaller, mana-efficient heals when you're already at full health.
Brutallus is an extreme counter-example, but the environment has changed enough that he's no longer very relevant. Decimation Blade isn't a counter-example, because it's not possible to increase your EH against that attack with Stamina. In some sense, they both represent the same scenario though - one where you can't possibly increase EH enough to get "out of the hole," and have no other choice but to stack avoidance. They're the exception though, not the rule.
We don't need to guess at this either, we have historical precedent to go by. Think about the last time a paladin tank was seriously in danger of being 2-shot: it was in Wrath. Healers were spamming big heals to deal with the enormous throughput. And what did we stack? EH. Because that was the only way to prevent getting globaled.
Situation (2), which is the category that almost all tanks in Firelands would fall into, is where some people think that avoidance becomes preferable to stamina. I believe that they're wrong about that.
The usual argument is that it saves healer mana. In practice, I don't think that tanks stress healer mana very much at all. I've yet to see a healer resort to Divine Light (DL) or Flash of Light (FoL) spam to keep up with tank throughput damage. Usually it's a mixture of Holy Light and DL, modulated according to intake, and then FoL/DL/WoGs to recover from spikes. What saps healer mana, apart from avoidable damage (i.e. standing in fire, forgetting to use a cooldown) is reacting to those spikes by resorting to fast, inefficient heals to make sure the tank has enough health to survive the next melee.
Avoidance will reduce the frequency of spikes, of course, but the amount gained through trinkets, gems, and enchants isn't enough to make a large difference. Certainly not enough to change how your healers play, or how they react to you taking damage. Stamina is still the most effective tool we have for that, because the EH gain is measurable and large enough that your healers will notice. It buy them time to consider their next cast, and lets them forgo more of the the fast inefficient heals for slower, more efficient heals. In that sense, I think Stamina is far more effective at saving healer mana than avoidance is, at least in the 3-4 hit situation. 10-20k health will make a far more noticeable difference in how they play than 2-3% avoidance would.
Some people also believe that EH is only useful in this scenario if it lets you reach a new "threshold," meaning that you can now survive N+1 boss attacks instead of N. I think they're wrong about that too.
Most of my deaths aren't from being 2-shot. Nor are they due to the healer not being able to keep up with boss throughput while standing and spamming big heals. They happen when an encounter mechanic forces an interruption in the healing stream; for example, the healer has to move, and I don't get enough direct healing to keep me alive through 3-5 damage events (boss attacks, DoTs, whatever). In that situation, the concept of "more EH than N attacks" is sort of muddy. Attack sizes vary, and you'll be receiving a variable amount of healing from your non-moving healers, HoTs, and absorbs. So the net damage and healing you receive is variable enough that the waters between 3 hits and 4 hits are muddied - it's entirely reasonable to die in a situation where you took "3.5 hits" worth of damage due to healing, absorbs, and variable hit sizes.
So adding 0.25 "hits" worth of EH isn't meaningless, even if you're going from 2-2.25 or 3-3.25 instead of 2.75-3. That said, the value of that extra 0.25 "hits" suffers from a sort of diminishing returns - once you can take 6 hits, you might be able to survive for 10+ seconds without heals. There are very few mechanics that will interrupt your healing stream for that long (though dead healers count!), which reduces the value of adding more EH. It's still nonzero, but because the event is so rare it's less effective.
Which brings us to Situation (3). This is where I think avoidance really comes into its own. Not because it's a situation where avoidance really shines, but because it's a situation where the diminishing returns on EH push it's value down. If the boss can't kill you in 6 or more melee swings (which may be ~10 seconds without healing, an absurdly long time), you've got little incentive to stretch that time window any longer, so why not beef up your avoidance?
Unfortunately, it's also where the boss starts becoming trivial. If the boss can't kill you in 10 seconds, then he doesn't hit hard enough to test your survivability. And most tanks will start wearing DPS trinkets or putting on 2-piece Ret gear for lulz at that point. The relevant comparison would be a heroic Firelands tank wearing DPS gear for a troll heroic, or maybe a weak normal-mode T11 boss.
So in summary, the one situation where avoidance really does match or exceed stamina in survivability value is the trivial situation, where the boss isn't dangerous on short time scales. That shouldn't be surprising, in fact - the entire triage model was initially built around the concept that tank death would not occur due to spikes, but because healers ran out of mana over the course of an encounter. That scenario - low chance of spike death but noticeable time-averaged damage intake - is exactly situation 3, the weak-hitting boss that hits frequently. And that's how you make avoidance valuable: by making time-averaged damage intake a relevant metric.
Unfortunately, that's not how things played out. Meloree has pointed out in the past that healer mana regen scaled a lot faster than it should have, and that led to the current situation where tank throughput doesn't end up being a consideration. Overall damage taken at the end of an encounter hasn't mattered since early T11. And making it a factor, either by nerfing regen or modifying the boss damage and swing timer to smooth damage profiles, would run the risk of making things worse (for us, at least). In the scenario where tank throughput matters, but spike damage doesn't, the tank with the most self-healing becomes more attractive. And that's not us, it's DK's.
To be fair, I don't think the system is bad the way it is. The choices we're debating here might only affect the outcome of an encounter 1% of the time, and may even depend on the exact relationship between the tank and his or her healing team. But I do think it relegates avoidance to the role of "second class citizen," and that we should recognize the limitations of avoidance that come out of this model.
I dont agree with you there. Even though avoidance is percentage based and stam isnt id still prefer to avoid the damage instead of having more than enough health to take it. Damage is damage and the healers have to heal that damage up. They wont have to when you avoid the melee swings.
The example of baleroc; With my avoidance i dont get hit by each decimate blade in fact there has been decimation blades where i didnt take any damage at all!
I think stacking stam above avoidance is just even more stress to the healers. You have more health they will have to heal up.
Im doing a "mix", Im now at the 102,4% (maybe .something above) and when im fully raid buffed ive got 210,7k health. Through entire firelands I honestly havent felt like i didnt have the hitpoints to go through a boss fight.
EDIT: I do however agree that you have to be above a specific point, but i havent been below that yet i havent been gemming for stamina untill now (because ive reached the 102,4%)
Last edited by Evilunclebill : 10/14/11 at 3:48 AM.