Mists of Pandaria: All Specs - Page 2

iAMFogal · 10/29/11, 3:48 PM

Anyone else feel as though these new talent changes hurting hybrid classes? Druids they accomplished a nice balance because they have abilities which change depending on your role. But with pallys they are trying to balance prot, ret, holy, and pvp. And without creating a talent for each spec on every tier, which would create the cookie cutter builds, they have tiers which are completely useless for other roles. With a hunter, mage or lock it is much easier for them to balance because they are doing one thing only, no matter pve or pvp. They can have total utility tiers or dps tiers. I know they have yet to find final talents, but i hope they find a way to make it balanced.

Tyvi · 10/29/11, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Fourth tier (L60):
All of benefit to healers, but leaves Prot and Ret rather out in the cold. 2/3 require the use of HP to activate, and both specs have better uses for their precious HP for their main role: tanking or DPSing. The last 1/3 requires cast-time spells (FoL), which would again reduce a Prot or Ret's main role via cast time or no block/parry/dodge!.

I don't get this. Holy Shield is pretty much the new pre-nerf Word of Glory. How can any Prot Pala resent boosting their survivability at the cost of DPS?

iAMFogal · 10/29/11, 4:14 PM

Originally Posted by Liar

I don't get this. Holy Shield is pretty much the new pre-nerf Word of Glory. How can any Prot Pala resent boosting their survivability at the cost of DPS?

I agree, holy shield looks like a good talent for prot. SotR looks to be the same concept as WoG. Its usefullness will depend on whether healers need the help or not. In truth we should be using our HP for survivability, not more dps. Ret uses it for dps, holy uses it for healing, Prot should use it for protection. I believe this talent was made with us in mind, holy has less use for it since WoG heals and provides a damage absorption shield.

On a side note, Sacred Shield or Ardent Defender for prot?

thatbox · 10/29/11, 5:41 PM

They're proposing a system similar to Glyph swapping, so presumably Prot will swap between SS and AD on a per-fight basis depending on damage profiles and cooldown availability.

Exemplar · 10/31/11, 8:41 AM

Originally Posted by Liar

I don't get this. Holy Shield is pretty much the new pre-nerf Word of Glory. How can any Prot Pala resent boosting their survivability at the cost of DPS?

You're forgetting that tanks are supposed to be more active in survival, a la DK. Design should require use of HP to improve the prot's ability not to DPS, but to tank (without talents), just as HP improves a Holy's ability to heal or a Ret's ability to DPS. Thus using HP on a damage absorption shield should be something you rarely desire, as you want to use your HP on something more valuable to your own defense - anything from several seconds of greater dodge/parry chance, block chance/value, damage reduction, to a self-only shield far superior to the talented useable-on-anyone version. Otherwise it becomes cookie cutter 'must have' talent for prot in order to help reduce incoming damage, since DPS is already a non-issue with the threat boosts.

Regarding speed boosts:
Presuming you hold 3 HP until right before CS comes back off CD to blow and regen to 1 HP - this puts you at 10-30% speed at most times. Average of 20%.
45% speed boost every 4 seconds on an 8 second CD is average of 22.5%. This wins.

In PvP you're more likely to be chasing or chased at 0, 1, or 2 HP than 3 - only 25% chance to be at 3 HP. Then you catch up, manage to TV, lose your HP and can no longer close to generate more. Whereas Judgement can be performed at range to close, strike, fall behind, repeat.

HP in general:
Unfortunately, the talents infer that we will continue to have a maximum of 3 HP, which is one of the core design flaws of Paladins at the moment. With HP being such a small number, any change is a large swing. Procs of a single HP become extremely powerful and partials cannot be accommodated (50% chance at 1 HP does not equal 0.5 HP, instead it equals RNG Hades). Compare to the ability to add 1 to 5 additional Energy/Runic Power, which is 1/100th to 1/20th of the total - this makes fine tuning bonuses and clever effects significantly easier.

Tyvi · 10/31/11, 3:44 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Thus using HP on a damage absorption shield should be something you rarely desire, as you want to use your HP on something more valuable to your own defense - anything from several seconds of greater dodge/parry chance, block chance/value, damage reduction, to a self-only shield far superior to the talented useable-on-anyone version.

Oh, I agree with the theory. I am just not sure that this is realistic. I do not doubt that Prot Paladins will get something on the base level that turns Holy Power into mitigation but this does not necessarily devalue Holy Shield. If, for example, said innate Prot ability gives you increased block chance, that would still leave the niche of flat damage absorption - especially magical - for Holy Shield.

I also don't agree that tanks have to be completely disconnected from protecting the raid either. If you are in no threat of dying, why wouldn't you Holy Shield a raid member? Sure, you got HoSac but that has quite a bit of a cool down and there generally is never a case where you can have too much DPS so ideally the Prot Paladin would use this instead of Ret (unless it somehow turns out that Prot can convert 3 HP into more DPS than Ret but I am highly dubious that will happen).

Personally, I would love to have a talent like this as a Blood DK. Even if it means I would have to skip a Death Strike to do it. Choices are great and this is definitely one of the better, situational ones (ingame once you spec it, not the tier itself).

Tobrexa · 11/09/11, 7:59 PM

Excerpt from Q&A:

Q: Forgive my obsession with visuals: any chance Templar's Verdict will get a new spell effect/animation in the near future? It feels wimpy!
A: We know Retadins love their Divine Storm, so we want to make TV use a similar graphic (perhaps just one spinny hammer) so both finishers will have the same feel. DS goes back to a finisher in 5.0 since Ret and Prot both have Hammer of the Righteous. We are looking a lot at spell effects for melee in 5.0 since their attacks just aren't as flashy as the casters'.

Sounds like HotR will replace DS as AoE HP generator and DS seems to become a AoE finisher.

Eskostar · 11/09/11, 8:21 PM

In addition:

Q: Any plans on making Ret paladin damage less random?
A: In 5.0 we moved Divine Purpose to a talent, so if you skip that one then the main source of RNG will just be Art of War procs, which should be a lot less random than today if that suits your play style.

Q: Is Word of Glory still going to be on a 20s CD for protection paladins? With the new active mitigation paradigm, it would seem "paladin-ish" to heal myself every time I can (or to choose a heal OR a holy shield).
A: Word of Glory does not need a cooldown in 5.0. Prot can choose whether to use it for healing, Holy Shield for absorption, or Shield of the Righteous for block.

Q: Any chance we can go ahead and change Judgement to produce Holy Power baseline for 4.3? It's so needed. And it's a shame to have wait to get the tier bonus just to have stable rotation.
A: We currently plan for Judgment in 5.0 to have a 6sec cooldown, 30yd range, and to generate 1 Holy Power. In 4.3, the set bonus should be fairly accessible, to get the Holy Power generation.

Q: Is Inquisition on a ret pally going to see some changes, currently it's needed for decent DPS but has such a short duration, to a point the ability feels awkward.. People liken it to Slice and Dice, but Slice and dice has such a nice long duration even with a single combo point, and feels so much more natural to keep it running.
A: We're currently considering a glyph for Inquisition which would significantly increase its duration, at a cost of slightly reducing its effect. We're interested in hearing feedback on how people would feel about that sort of glyph.

aylen86 · 11/10/11, 4:35 AM

Might be also of interest for Ret:

Q: Retribution, and the paladin class in general, has seen many iterations since release. The past few expansions have brought changes that basically make spec unrecognizable to how it handled in the previous expansion. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, players are forced to completely relearn the class with each expansion. Will Retribution recieve another overhaul in MoP in regards to Holy Power, resource management, and rotation, or are you happy with the "feel" of the class as it currently performs in cata?
A: That's always a hard decision to make (when to overhaul a class). Demo and Destro locks for example are gettign a bit of that in 5.0. We like the Holy Power model for Retribution (and all paladins) and aren't going to dramatically overhaul it. We are fixing some issues with it that players have brought up. We understand some players liked the LK version of the Ret paladin, but we worry they liked it either because it was very simple to play or because it did too much damage, neither of which is great for the long term of the game. We think classes need a resource of some form to be interesting.

No hybrid tax in 5.0:

Q: If there's no hybrid tax, what's the point of playing a pure DPS class? Raid/pug leaders will always prefer players that can fill multiple roles. When hybrids like Boomkin and Shadow Priests are out DPSing the four pure classes across most parses, I think something's wrong.
A: We want to make sure there are pure DPS classes in raids. That doesn't mean that hybrids just have to be support classes as they were back in the BC days. But it does mean that you should neglect mages, locks, rogues and hunters at your peril. There may very well be more hybrids, because they just have a chance at more roles, so you can't just look at popularity of classes, but we will take steps to make sure the pures don't vanish.

No compensation for lost relic slots:

Q: Since in MoP you guys plan on getting rid of relics for pallies, shamans, druids, and stat sticks for hunters are you planning on boosting stats in other areas to compensate? Or are the range slots for the other classes being removed as well?
A: The ranged slot is being removed for everyone in 5.0. Relics are gone. Ranged Weapons will be usable in the main hand by appropriate classes. Wands will become a type of main hand weapon. This effectively is a slight nerf to the stats of everyone equally, so doesn't cause class balance concerns.

DS goes back to a finisher/new spell effect for TV!

Q: Forgive my obsession with visuals: any chance Templar's Verdict will get a new spell effect/animation in the near future? It feels wimpy!
A: We know Retadins love their Divine Storm, so we want to make TV use a similar graphic (perhaps just one spinny hammer) so both finishers will have the same feel. DS goes back to a finisher in 5.0 since Ret and Prot both have Hammer of the Righteous. We are looking a lot at spell effects for melee in 5.0 since their attacks just aren't as flashy as the casters'.

Avenging Wrath may stay dispellable in 5.0:

Q: Retribution have some issues with Hand of Freedom and Wings being dispellable. Especially against mages I feel like it's bad using Hand of Freedom because it can be spellstolen so easily
A: Dispels are just too frequent. They are supposed to be decisions, but they aren't. We don't think the answer is to give everyone dispel protection. We think the answer is to make dispels harder. In 5.0 we want dispels to have a cooldown and duration more like Spellsteal but get all buffs or debuffs at once to make them more tactical -- you can dispel Avenging Wrath if you really want to, but then you won't have it if the paladin uses Freedom immediately after.

Also interrupts will be rarer:

Interrupts:
We want interrupting to feel more meaningful, for both the interrupter and the target. Interrupts should be rarer, but when you do get interrupted, you should know that you have a significant period of time where you can cast without fear of being interrupted again. We're still expecting to have a noticeable variance in the interrupts for different classes though, so that they can keep the sort of identity they're used to (rogues locking out for the largest percentage of time, shaman recasting the most frequently, etc). We're expecting to have most cooldowns in the 15- to 25-sec range, and most lockout durations in the 3- to 6-sec range. There may be a few outliers from there, but not many, and not by much.

Discussion:

Originally Posted by Eskostar

A: We're currently considering a glyph for Inquisition which would significantly increase its duration, at a cost of slightly reducing its effect. We're interested in hearing feedback on how people would feel about that sort of glyph.

This seem's like a weak solution to me.

People would estimate the DPS difference between a glyphed an unglyphed version of Inquistion and would compare this with other glyphes on this glyph slot. Best will be taken as always.
Not so much of a real and valuable choice in my opinion.

Exemplar · 11/10/11, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Eskostar

Q: Any plans on making Ret paladin damage less random?
A: In 5.0 we moved Divine Purpose to a talent, so if you skip that one then the main source of RNG will just be Art of War procs, which should be a lot less random than today if that suits your play style.

Q: Any chance we can go ahead and change Judgement to produce Holy Power baseline for 4.3? It's so needed. And it's a shame to have wait to get the tier bonus just to have stable rotation.
A: We currently plan for Judgment in 5.0 to have a 6sec cooldown, 30yd range, and to generate 1 Holy Power. In 4.3, the set bonus should be fairly accessible, to get the Holy Power generation.

Q: Is Inquisition on a ret pally going to see some changes, currently it's needed for decent DPS but has such a short duration, to a point the ability feels awkward.. People liken it to Slice and Dice, but Slice and dice has such a nice long duration even with a single combo point, and feels so much more natural to keep it running.
A: We're currently considering a glyph for Inquisition which would significantly increase its duration, at a cost of slightly reducing its effect. We're interested in hearing feedback on how people would feel about that sort of glyph.

In order:
1) Divine Purpose moved from a talent to... a talent. Frankly, DPS is the easiest role to theorycraft. Numbers can be definitively crunched (at least for a Patchwerk model). A definitive 'best for DPS' can be determined between two mutually exclusive options . Yes, the occasional individual boss mechanic could break the rule, but infrequently, otherwise it changes theorycrafting and a different 'best' talent is determined. If Divine Purpose, on average, provides more DPS than the 2 competitive options, it becomes a 'no brainer.' That's not a play style decision.

To be fair, numbers defining a 'best' option is at least very difficult to overcome (if not insurmountable) issue with any DPS impacting talents. Claiming it to be a playstyle choice when Blizzard so often trots out the fact that they're aware folks will number crunch to death and then the vast majority of the playerbase will swap for as little as a 1% gain seems disingenuous.

With the 'Judgement provides HP change', it also runs into overflowing the resource pool. You're at 2 HP and Judge to gain your 3rd HP. DivPurp, if it occurs, is wasted as you are already capped on HP. This leads into #2...

2) Holy Power still has its most significant drawback: resource pool size. 100 energy/rage/runic power works because they can tailor things to grant as little as 1/100th of the pool, up to and beyond 1/3 or 2/3 of the pool. HP provides 1/3, 2/3, or all of your total pool at a go - hard stop. It cannot be 1/10th, 1/4, or 1/2. 2/3 contains its own issues (at 2 power, generate 2 more, thus 1 wastage).

We all saw the tier gear go from 50% chance to provide HP (the closest you could get to providing less than 1/3 at a time) to a full HP as adding further RNG was a maddening prospect. Granting another guaranteed HP by Judgement is all well and good, but the mechanic is coarse and cannot provide fine gradations. It's harder to tune or give situational bonuses than the other resources. Look at boss buffs that give greater mana/rage/energy/runic power generation - there's no way they could provide HP (barring some clunky 1 per X seconds, which again runs into capping issues) without being vastly imbalanced.

3) Back to the math. Not just comparing Glyph to Glyph, but we can calc the DPS benefits (extra HP/free GCD) of + duration versus lost bonus damage. Balancing lost holy damage to gained HP/GCD would be hard. Even if they hit this sweet spot and the glyph is truly a playstyle choice - how would this not alter over an X-pac?

We're dealing with a percentage modifier here. As Holy damage goes up, the percent makes more impact, thus loss of some of Inq's power becomes a greater DPS loss. The better our gear, a trade-off glyph becomes either worse or better, depending on ratio of physical to Holy damage.

Kinda puzzled they didn't mention a simple solution, such as doing something like they discussed about Warlock DoTs not clipping. A refresh within X seconds doesn't clip. Example: refresh Inq anywhere at/under, say 6 seconds, and your timer becomes (HP * 12) + remainder. Refresh over 6 seconds (again example number) and you get (HP * 12) + 6.

Alleyra · 11/11/11, 12:31 AM

Wonderful points, Exemplar -- particularly #2. A simple change to allowing for storing 5 Holy Power, while keeping current ability costs, would do much to alleviate any resource crunch.

Originally Posted by Exemplar

3) Back to the math. Not just comparing Glyph to Glyph, but we can calc the DPS benefits (extra HP/free GCD) of + duration versus lost bonus damage. Balancing lost holy damage to gained HP/GCD would be hard. Even if they hit this sweet spot and the glyph is truly a playstyle choice - how would this not alter over an X-pac?

We're dealing with a percentage modifier here. As Holy damage goes up, the percent makes more impact, thus loss of some of Inq's power becomes a greater DPS loss. The better our gear, a trade-off glyph becomes either worse or better, depending on ratio of physical to Holy damage.

Kinda puzzled they didn't mention a simple solution, such as doing something like they discussed about Warlock DoTs not clipping. A refresh within X seconds doesn't clip. Example: refresh Inq anywhere at/under, say 6 seconds, and your timer becomes (HP * 12) + remainder. Refresh over 6 seconds (again example number) and you get (HP * 12) + 6.

I think this is a point that has a particular poignant relevance regarding future changes with Retribution.

One of the major issues Ret has (and will continue to have through 4.3) is the RNG element dominating how well the spec does. Though proc RNG plays a significant factor in Ret's damage output, I feel like our resource mechanics' split usage also plays a large factor. Granted the T13 set bonus will help, there is still the fundamental clumsiness of balancing Inquisition vs Templar's Verdict usage. Assuming an attempted up-time of 100% on Inquisition, most Paladins currently sacrifice nearly every third TV. (DP procs notwithstanding.) This leads to a very "bursty" or spotty data pool, as our DPS takes a significant tumble just to maintain the damage multiplier: and subsequently "spikes" back up when able to use Holy Power for finishers. Nor is spending our main DPS mechanic on a buff every 46 seconds very "fun."

Exemplar's point nails it on the head in how a Glyph is merely a band-aid solution; and ultimately not a reliable way of handling the mechanic. But I also disagree that having an additive effect upon refreshing the buff is the way to go. Frankly, I feel like a better way of handling Inquisition is simply to make it Retribution's version of Shadowform through a specialization perk. It may not necessarily be unique, but it would be a better, simpler way of determining Holy Power usage and DPS. Alternatively, if Inquisition's duration were in the 2+ minute area, our resource mechanic wouldn't feel so "wasted" on so frequently refreshing a buff; as it is currently. If the proposed Glyph were a simple duration extension (exactly like a Warrior's Commanding/Battle Shout Minor Glyph, raising the duration from 2 minutes to 4 minutes) then I am all for it. Either of these changes would allow for a much more stable, consistent way to tune the spec's damage output -- rather than balancing around massive burst.

Remember: 5.0 will reintroduce DS as a Holy Power ability, in addition to TV, WoG, and possibly Holy Shield. That already seems like a plethora of options in which to dump our resource mechanic.

Dassian · 11/11/11, 7:08 AM

Originally Posted by Alleyra

Exemplar's point nails it on the head in how a Glyph is merely a band-aid solution; and ultimately not a reliable way of handling the mechanic. But I also disagree that having an additive effect upon refreshing the buff is the way to go. Frankly, I feel like a better way of handling Inquisition is simply to make it Retribution's version of Shadowform through a specialization perk. It may not necessarily be unique, but it would be a better, simpler way of determining Holy Power usage and DPS. Alternatively, if Inquisition's duration were in the 2+ minute area, our resource mechanic wouldn't feel so "wasted" on so frequently refreshing a buff; as it is currently. If the proposed Glyph were a simple duration extension (exactly like a Warrior's Commanding/Battle Shout Minor Glyph, raising the duration from 2 minutes to 4 minutes) then I am all for it. Either of these changes would allow for a much more stable, consistent way to tune the spec's damage output -- rather than balancing around massive burst.

Remember: 5.0 will reintroduce DS as a Holy Power ability, in addition to TV, WoG, and possibly Holy Shield. That already seems like a plethora of options in which to dump our resource mechanic.

A lot of the clumsiness you described just comes from the slow HP generation we currently have (DP aside). Having more abilites generate HP - via setbonus or the proposed changes coming in 5.0 - is a good way to smooth out our rotation, as it will rapidly increase the use of "finishers".
I actually like the way Inquisition works. It actively raises the skillcap of the spec. TV vs. Inquisition is a meaningful decision you have to make and it should stay like that. I am not super hyped about the idea of a duration of several minutes. This would make the ability pretty much a passive buff that you click once in a while and then completely forget about for a certain period of time. Whereas now you at least constantly have to take a glimpse at your buff timers and think about when you should refresh Inquisition or if you rather use another TV. Again this is all with 5.0 in mind and DP taken out of consideration.

Speaking of DP, one thing i actually really liked about the talents shown at Blizzcon was the possibility to opt-out of DP completely. To be honest, I don't like this mechanic at all. The random nature of it can make or break your dps - you essentially have very little control it. Especially in very short periods of time (I'm speaking 10-15, possibly 20 seconds here) where you have to get out x amount of damage, DP can either make you shine or totally screw you over.
Of course at the end it comes down to number crunching whether you use DP or not. But if the alternatives are in a reasonably small margin of it, I would always choose the option with a stable and predictable damage output.

Overall the thing that Ret needs the most is a more fluid income of HP. With that in mind I think the 5.0 changes are going in the right direction.

Pdawg · 11/11/11, 3:55 PM

Keep in mind that Divine Purpose is being gutted in 5.0. While it currently procs off of Judgement, Exorcism, TV, DS, Inquisition, Holy Wrath, and Hammer of Wrath, in 5.0 it can only proc off of abilities that consume holy power. The only abilities that consume holy power for Retribution in 5.0 are: TV, DS, Inquisition, Word of Glory, and if you choose to spec it, Holy Shield. All of those abilities will almost always be cast only when we have 3 holy power, which happens every 11 seconds or so. By removing all of our fillers from the list of abilities that can proc Divine Purpose, much of the randomness of DP is removed, and you'll only need to pay attention for DP procs once every 11 seconds.

Since we use our 3HP abilities once every 11 seconds, and each of those uses has a 15% chance to proc DP, we're looking at an average of about 1 proc per minute (its higher than 60 / 11 * 0.15 since the free TV from a DP proc can proc another DP as well). This seems quite weak for a final tier, level 90 talent, and I can't imagine that we'd want to pick it up for either PvE or PvP.

aylen86 · 11/12/11, 2:24 AM

Regarding Glyph of Inquisition and longer duration of Inq in general:

Glyph of Inquisition feedback

The intent is that it is not damage neutral. Yes, managing Inquisition should mean higher DPS, if you are exceptional at managing it. However, a lot of players find that they can’t operate their class at full effectiveness when they are actually in an encounter with all of the running around, target switching and other encounter mechanics that aren’t present when blasting away at a target dummy. One of the biggest differences we see between good guilds and best-in-the-world guilds is that the latter can maintain maximum DPS in almost any situation.

The hope by implementing a glyph like this (and we aren’t sure we will, which is why we want feedback) is that your empirical DPS with the glyph may be higher than your theoretical DPS without it. Players who ignored the glyph might do lower DPS (because they are mortal and sometimes fumble with Inquisition) than if they just used the glyph.

This is the kind of idea that, if it works, would be something we could do it for most classes and specs: trade off higher theoretical damage / tanking / healing for an easier rotation that might just mean higher effectiveness for some players. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Malleus · 11/12/11, 5:53 AM

That blue needs to learn what the big words mean, I think. Theoretical DPS must be higher than empirical DPS; if it isn't, the theory is wrong. If empirical DPS with Glyph of Inquisition is higher than theoretical DPS without it, then TDPS with GoInq would also be higher than TDPS without it. That would make GoInq compulsory, unless the boost didn't put it into the top three.

What he meant to say, of course, is that while using GoInq would lower your theoretical DPS it would raise your empirical DPS. However, a very good player should be able to do EDPS without the Glyph that exceeds TDPS with it.