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Old 04/16/12, 7:36 PM   #31
Dudekman
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Nathrezim
You also left out the ability to reforge the mastery away to a more desirable stat (such as parry), propelling the tank piece further ahead.

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Old 04/16/12, 8:44 PM   #32
Womba
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Hyjal
Stam (and armor) will likely be identical between tank and dps plate of the same item level, so we can ignore it when comparing pieces. At least, that's how it is on live, and is my assumption for MoP.

In terms of reforging mastery to parry on my dodge/mastery tank example, here's how it would turn out:

100 dodge = 185.72
60 mastery = 26.076
40 parry = 74.288
total = 286.084

So the dodge/mastery "tank" piece, reforged, is 29.1% better than the crit/hit "dps" piece (also reforged), but only 0.43% better than the haste/hit piece. Factor in diminishing returns on dodge/parry, and the haste/hit piece would likely be better.

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Old 04/16/12, 8:57 PM   #33
Ronark
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Womba View Post
Stam (and armor) will likely be identical between tank and dps plate of the same item level, so we can ignore it when comparing pieces. At least, that's how it is on live, and is my assumption for MoP.
Take a look at the Gems for MoP. Primary stat gems (Strength, Intellect, and Agility) have less itemization points (are worth more per point) than Secondary stats (Stamina, Spirit, Hit, Expertise, Mastery). What this could mean for Tank gear, is that it has less Str but more secondary stats that as a whole are more useful for active mitigation.

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Old 04/16/12, 9:36 PM   #34
Womba
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Ronark View Post
Take a look at the Gems for MoP. Primary stat gems (Strength, Intellect, and Agility) have less itemization points (are worth more per point) than Secondary stats (Stamina, Spirit, Hit, Expertise, Mastery). What this could mean for Tank gear, is that it has less Str but more secondary stats that as a whole are more useful for active mitigation.
I just checked out some item level 450 plate gear that MMO Champion linked. Three pieces each of tank gear (they had dodge or parry on them), and similar dps slot pieces. The armor, Str and Stam was the same for dps and tank gear.

If I had to guess why gems would have different itemization, it would be that on live, the primary stats (Str, Int, Agi) were so much better than secondary stats (crit, haste, etc.) that players were ignoring the socket bonuses and just gemming up their primary stat. With the MoP gem stat changes, we may actually go for more socket bonuses.

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Old 04/17/12, 4:58 PM   #35
Meloree
Bored
 
Human Paladin
 
Garona
Originally Posted by Ronark View Post
It should be noted that in magic intense fights that WoG will most likely be the go-to HP dump, which is also based on HPG but has zero interactions with Maserty.
Likely is a pretty tough sell. WoG currently heals for a whole lot less than a guaranteed block mitigates in any kind of raid content - at 85 it only takes a 40k melee to guarantee that SotR reduces more damage than WoG saves, with a side effect of doing some extra damage. To use WoG you need to know that the next damage you'll receive is unblockable and that it will kill you, or SotR is still a better choice.

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Old 04/17/12, 5:56 PM   #36
Ronark
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Meloree View Post
Likely is a pretty tough sell. WoG currently heals for a whole lot less than a guaranteed block mitigates in any kind of raid content - at 85 it only takes a 40k melee to guarantee that SotR reduces more damage than WoG saves, with a side effect of doing some extra damage. To use WoG you need to know that the next damage you'll receive is unblockable and that it will kill you, or SotR is still a better choice.
It would be dependent upon Encounter mechanics. For example, in a fight like Heroic Yor'shaj the damage you would be taking from the DoT will far exceed any blockable damage from the boss itself. You could add in the extra critical effect if Sacred Shield is taken as well.

Blizzard has stated before that their philosophy for determining encounter mechanics is based on the presently available player mechanics. Blizzard accepting WoG as a Tank Cooldown for Paladins would also ensure that they intend for it to be used.

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Old 04/18/12, 1:18 AM   #37
Meloree
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Human Paladin
 
Garona
Originally Posted by Ronark View Post
It would be dependent upon Encounter mechanics. For example, in a fight like Heroic Yor'shaj the damage you would be taking from the DoT will far exceed any blockable damage from the boss itself. You could add in the extra critical effect if Sacred Shield is taken as well.

Blizzard has stated before that their philosophy for determining encounter mechanics is based on the presently available player mechanics. Blizzard accepting WoG as a Tank Cooldown for Paladins would also ensure that they intend for it to be used.
It doesn't matter what the overall proportion of blockable vs. unblockable damage is. It only matters whether a WoG heals for more than a SotR mitigates. I checked WoL, and H-Yor'shaj (25) appears to still swing for ~75k on a paladin - 43k for 10H. SotR would be strictly better while tanking - WoG while just soaking off the DoT, of course.

The critical effect is stochastic - much like the increased block value portion of the buff. What's realistically in comparison in most situations is non-crit WoG vs. one guaranteed block (which, incidentally, also adds DPS). Currently SotR almost always wins.

Part of the problem is that SotR scales with boss damage, and WoG (thus far) does not. If WoG is attractive in 25H, it will almost always be the superior survival choice in 10H and normals. Conversely, if it's made balanced in 10H and normals, it will almost never be useful in 25H.

So, again - likely is a tough sell. WoG is around, but thus far it looks like it's going to be a rare-use tool.

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Old 04/18/12, 10:00 AM   #38
Ronark
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
That is right, as one reasin why Bloodshiwld for DKs is attractive is that it works based on damage sustained. Would it be more true then to compare WoG to Rune Tap that has no cool down? It's an active mitigation tool through healing alone. I think that there will be a time and place to use WoG, just like there is for other abilities.

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Old 04/18/12, 4:14 PM   #39
Charybdis
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Area 52
Originally Posted by Womba View Post
I just checked out some item level 450 plate gear that MMO Champion linked. Three pieces each of tank gear (they had dodge or parry on them), and similar dps slot pieces. The armor, Str and Stam was the same for dps and tank gear.

If I had to guess why gems would have different itemization, it would be that on live, the primary stats (Str, Int, Agi) were so much better than secondary stats (crit, haste, etc.) that players were ignoring the socket bonuses and just gemming up their primary stat. With the MoP gem stat changes, we may actually go for more socket bonuses.
As the ratings conversions get higher with each expansion, secondary stats will continue to lose ground compared to primary stats unless they radically change how primaries affect different abilities. That's the main cause of the difference between Wrath gemming and Cataclysm gemming. I'm not even sure the secondary stat boost will be enough for such gems to compete unless the socket bonus is regularly enough to cover the difference.

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Old 04/19/12, 5:24 PM   #40
Wrathblood
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Drenden
Originally Posted by Meloree View Post
It doesn't matter what the overall proportion of blockable vs. unblockable damage is. It only matters whether a WoG heals for more than a SotR mitigates. I checked WoL, and H-Yor'shaj (25) appears to still swing for ~75k on a paladin - 43k for 10H. SotR would be strictly better while tanking - WoG while just soaking off the DoT, of course.

The critical effect is stochastic - much like the increased block value portion of the buff. What's realistically in comparison in most situations is non-crit WoG vs. one guaranteed block (which, incidentally, also adds DPS). Currently SotR almost always wins.

Part of the problem is that SotR scales with boss damage, and WoG (thus far) does not. If WoG is attractive in 25H, it will almost always be the superior survival choice in 10H and normals. Conversely, if it's made balanced in 10H and normals, it will almost never be useful in 25H.

So, again - likely is a tough sell. WoG is around, but thus far it looks like it's going to be a rare-use tool.
There's nothing wrong with WoG being a situational ability (not that you're saying there is, but there does appear to be a sub-text of disapproval going on here). Everything is situational, really, or will be once the numbers are crunched thoroughly enough to figure out what ability is optimal in which situation. Its pretty much impossible to balance abilities such that you'd literally be indifferent to which one to use in a situation, and even if it were somehow possible, it would be pretty poor game design to create conflicting abilities. So, whether WoG is rarely used will be dependent on how rare are the situations in which its the optimal use of HoPo.

Which ability to use in which situation does indeed seem like it will be pretty clear. If the boss is meleeing you and its melee isn't absolutely trivial, then you use SotR. If there's a break in the incoming melee (boss is out of melee range for some reason, or goes into a cast-only mode, or its a tank swap/BQL thing) then switching over to WoG could be a reasonable choice (to help out with the healing) though if its a burn phase, sticking with SotR would probably be valid, depending on how the mechanics and your raid's capabilities shake out. Of course, if the boss is up flying around and out of melee, you could WoG, but you'd also want to make sure you'll have have enough HoPo to ensure a SotR as soon as it lands.

We don't know any of this stuff yet, so while it seems quite likely SotR will be the "go to" HoPo use, its impossible to say how often we will end up WoGing. In Patch-style fight, sure, pretty close to never. With Yor'sahj, I could see sticking with SotR since you'd probably want to keep doing damage to the boss while he's calling the blobs, and doing damage to the adds/blocking their attacks isn't a bad thing either, but I could also see an argument for using WoG a good bit as well(your damage against the adds is probably pretty trivial, and I doubt they hit hard enough to make the block more valuable than the WoG).

Edit - With regard to stat weights, nice work Theck! An added advantage, of course, with going with the dps gear is that you'd probably do a fair bit more damage with a bunch of hit/haste pieces (even reforged to dodge/parry). Certainly your first priority is staying alive, and it sounds like threat will be trivial to maintain, but tank dps still has value. If you can get 99% of the survivability with dps pieces and up your dps by 20% or whatever, that seems like an attractive choice (assuming the various assumptions we're working with hold). I'll be a little surprised if they let Mastery go live this awful.

Last edited by Wrathblood : 04/19/12 at 5:39 PM.

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Old 04/25/12, 12:08 AM   #41
Wrathblood
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Drenden
ShoR reworked as of the new Beta version. Shield of the Righteous - Spells - WOWDB

Now does damage, and increases block chance by 10% and amount blocked by 30% for 6 seconds. AND, gives you a 10% buff on healing received from your next self-targeted WoG, which stacks up to 5 times (no duration?).

Also, Guarded by the Light now increases block chance by 10% and causes your SP to equal 50% of your AP, period. So no bonus from INT or buffs or anything else (at least, according to the tooltip).

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Old 04/25/12, 12:23 AM   #42
Ronark
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Also, mastery will affect the potency of the WoG seal healing buff. ((10*5)+ Mastery Bonus)%.

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Old 04/25/12, 11:01 AM   #43
alenari
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Draenor (EU)
Divine Guardian made a comeback in this patch but it is slightly changed.

Called Devotion Aura, granting immunity to silence and interrupt effects and reducing all magic damage taken by 20%
It lasts 6 seconds with a 2 min cooldown and 40 yard range.

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Old 04/27/12, 12:15 PM   #44
Womba
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Hyjal
Per MMO Champion today, regarding the new beta build (15650):

Protection:

Sanctuary now decreases damage taken by 15%, up from 10%.
Shield of the Righteous now reduces the physical damage you take by 30% instead of increasing your block chance.

The tool tip for SotR: Instantly slam the target with your shield, causing 4,063 Holy damage, reducing the physical damage you take by 30% for 3 sec, and causing Bastion of Glory.


The Sanctuary change brings us up to the base damage reduction of warriors.

The guaranteed physical damage reduction (even from unblockable sources, apparently) is nice. Three seconds of damage reduction from SotR seems pretty low. Basically one boss swing or one telegraphed Big Attack. If there are any bosses with long swing timers (Baleroc fire sword, for example), you'd actually have to time your usage correctly to even get one "block".

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Old 05/07/12, 1:30 AM   #45
Ronark
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
I replied in the other thread as well, but Prot's Sanctity of Battle affects some additional abilities: CS, Judgement, HotR, Hammer of Wrath, Consecration, Holy Wrath.

Additionally, Mastery affects both the direct damage reduction of SoR (pressumed through duration), and the effectiveness of Bastion of Glory. Finally, the Shield of the Righteous buff lasts for 6 sec, and not 3 as detailed in the tooltip. A longer duration could mean holding off on additional SoR-- and with it off the GCD, it is possible to use it when it is needed.

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