Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Paladins

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 07/23/12, 9:00 AM   #136
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
Assuming those all work the same, any refresh within the last 3 seconds of Inq's duration should be no loss, so we should be able to keep 100% uptime with no wasted HP.
Picking nits - it's closer to 98%. We always lose a few seconds (2 GCD) at the start of a fight.

That said, it makes the Glyph even less valuable, since there is less penalty for early refresh (zero penalty within the 3 second window). Those letting it fall off for long periods are as likely concerned with early refresh as simply being forgetful. Some group suffering up-time who would have been inclined toward the Glyph should have their 'problem' completely solved by this change.

For the average Ret it will produce no real discernable DPS increase. Over a 5 minute fight you'd use Inq 10 times. If you previously lost 3 seconds each time, that's 30 seconds saved or one Inq. That Inq would be transferred to a single TV over the course of the fight. Adding 1 TV to a fight's total damage will be fairly negligible. For those who were struggling with Inq, this will make it easier and allow them to focus on the rest of the job, thereby increasing their DPS.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

Offline
Old 07/27/12, 7:01 PM   #137
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
Ronark's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
PoJ received a slight nerf to overall movement speed. It now gives 15% speed at all times, but only 5% per Holy Power (up to three) in the latest build. Additionally SoR's damage increased by 40%, to 7% weapon damage per hit.

United States Offline
Old 07/30/12, 8:46 AM   #138
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
OP updated for both changes.

PoJ, though weakened, retains a slight edge for PvE. 15% always and 25%+ for most of a fight (since we should commonly be sitting on 2 HP). It should average better than Long Arm's 45% for 3 out of (less than) 6 seconds (average 22.5%), without Long Arm's additional issue of fast/slow/fast/slow jerkiness (or some crazy Silence effect). On the parity level, the Druid talent was likewise nerfed, so we're not being unfairly discriminated.

SoT vs SoR redux.

SoT is 14% Weapon + Censure.
SoR is now 7% Weapon.

Calcs:
Click Here ← Click Here

Assumed: Good old Normal Starshatter (3.6 speed, 12055-18084 damage), and 30k AP. Also assumed that SoT still is not normalized while SoR is still normalized. Why is one normalized and the other is not? Don't ask me, I just know what we've found based on empirical testing in Cata and before.

SoR
((((AP/14) * 3.3 ) + Weapon damage) * 7%)
((((30000/14) * 3.3 ) + 15070) * 7%)
((2142.8 * 3.3) + 15070) * 7%
(7071.4 + 15070) * 7%
22141.4 * 7%
1550 per target

SoT - Lots of data copied from Immediate Truth number crunching
(((AP/14) * Weaponspeed ) + Weapon damage) * 14%
(((30000/14) * 3.6) + 15070) * 14%
((2142.86 * 3.6) + 15070) * 14%
(7714.29 + 15070) * 14%
22784.29 * 14%
3189.8 per hit

15 seconds / 3.6 swingspeed = 4.166 autoattack in 15 seconds
Manage a CS every 4.5 seconds, so 3.33 CS in 15 seconds
And claim a TV every 4th GCD (implausible, but we'll say it's true), so 2.5 TV in 15 seconds
Combined 9.996 attacks, we'll round to 10
31898 in 15 seconds

Formula for single stack Censure
126 + 11% SPower per 15 seconds at 1 stack
where SP equals AP/2.
126 + 5.5% AP over 15 seconds at 1 stack
126 + (30000 * 0.055) over 15 seconds
126 + 1650 over 15 seconds
1776 over 15 seconds

355.2 per stack per 3-sec tick

We'll say first tick is a 2 stack, every other should be a 5 stack.

The number beside SoR is targets. Time is when (unhasted) melee attacks would hit.
TimeSoR 3SoR 4SoR 5SoT + CensureSoT Combined
04650620077503190 + 03190
3.6930012400155006380 + 7107090
7.21395018600232509570 + 248612056
10.818600248003100012760 + 426217022
14.423250310003875015950 + 603821988
1827900372004650019140 + 781426954
Results:
SoR is winning at 3 targets, though the margin is getting rather narrow (less than 1000 damage) by 18 seconds.

GCD for seal swaps would likely be net loss for less than 4 or 5 targets. Transitions with dead time (boss unhittable and adds not yet spawned/in range) would be perfect times to burn GCD on seal swaps.

A much stronger weapon without barely any extra AP skews slightly towards SoR (since Censure doesn't benefit from weapon damage), but it's unlikely to every be significant enough to skew results to fewer targets for SoT, so bottom line should be correct for all levels of gearing.

Bottom Line: If you have no free GCD then stick with SoT unless you have 4+ targets that will live for 30ish seconds, chop off 5 seconds for each target above 5 (so 25 seconds for 5 targets, etc). If you have empty GCD while waiting for adds then swapping to SoR at 3 targets is a gain. Thus, in general, 3 targets is full AOE territory (SoR, HotR, DS).

Standard caveat - numbers crunched at present values of abilities. Things could always change (again) tomorrow.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

Offline
Old 08/01/12, 12:04 AM   #139
aylen86
Piston Honda
 
aylen86's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Malygos (EU)
New blue postings:
- Judgment is once again a melee attack that has a 30-yard range (and probably stacking Censure, will need further testing)
- Sanctity of Battle will be based on melee rather than on spell haste. Finally! They're waiting for a code change to add this.

Sources:
Beta Class Balance Analysis - Forums - World of Warcraft / Beta Class Balance Analysis - Forums - World of Warcraft

Offline
Old 08/01/12, 2:11 AM   #140
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
Ronark's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
That should make Judgment also proc Battle Healer, other Seals, and spells and effects which work off Melee hits.

Also for thread completion, WoWDB.com lists several AP/SP scaling, including:
Exorcism with a 79.6% AP scaling
Word of Glory with a (3,904 + 37.7% SP) scaling (for Harsh Words glyph)
Judgment with a (702 + 63.5% SP) scaling
Hammer of Wrath with a (1838 + 161% SP) scaling
Templar's Verdict with 1,633 normalized 'bonus damage'

United States Offline
Old 08/01/12, 4:21 AM   #141
Pallytos
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Dunemaul
At the moment, Judgment is not stacking Censure. The name has been changed from Judgement to Judgment, which makes me think it has already been changed from spell to melee on beta, but still not stacking censure. Hoping name change happened while I wasn't looking at it and melee is coming next build and censure stacking too.

version 5.0.4(15913)

Offline
Old 08/01/12, 4:33 AM   #142
aylen86
Piston Honda
 
aylen86's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Malygos (EU)
It's called Judgment since the first MoP beta build, so this is a false analogy. The Judgment change is not in but covered in several blue posts as a potential change for the next builds.

There was no new beta build since 2012-07-27: MMO-Champion - Mists of Pandaria Beta - Build 15913

Offline
Old 08/02/12, 12:57 PM   #143
cky71321
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Lightning's Blade
I think it's safe to assume that we'll know how the professions will pan out at this point - despite data mining not be 100% clear on some of these items.

Jewelcrafting: 2x Bold Serpent's Eyes (+320 Strength)
Blacksmithing: 2x Sockets (+320 Strength OR +160 Strength/320 Secondary Stat)
Inscription: Secret Tiger Claw Inscription (+320 Strength)
Enchanting: 2x Enchant Ring - Greater Strength (+320 Strength)
Alchemy: Mixology/Alchemist's Flask (+320 Strength, the 3420 value on Wowhead is incorrect)
Leatherworking: Fur Lining - Strength Rank 3 (+330 Strength)
Tailoring: Swordguard Embroidery Rank 3 (+4000 AP/15 sec - 55 sec ICD) (Average: 1029 AP)
Engineering: Synapse Springs Mark II (+2940 Strength/10 sec - 60 sec CD) (Average: 490 Str)

Eliminating the flat +320 bonuses, we're left with Blacksmithing (due to the increase of secondary stats on hybrid gems), Leatherworking (+10 Strength), Tailoring, and Engineering.

As a reference, the bonuses of Synapse Springs and Swordguard Embroidery are both equal (490 Strength x 1.05 from Kings x 2AP/Str = 1029 AP). With the 4-piece bonus reducing Avenging Wrath to a 95 second cooldown, it will almost line up with every other SGE proc. Synapse Springs has the advantage of lining up perfectly with both Light's Hammer and Execution Sentence.

If the secondary stats on gems do not surpass the Strength trade-off, we can most likely assume that Engineering and Tailoring will be the professions of choice.

United States Offline
Old 08/02/12, 2:00 PM   #144
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
Ronark's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
There was a Blue post in response to this:

- Blacksmithing having a stronger profession perk is something we’re investigating.
This could mean that they are looking at all professions, just Blacksmithing, or they know nothing.

United States Offline
Old 08/02/12, 2:54 PM   #145
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Ronark View Post
There was a Blue post in response to this:
- Blacksmithing having a stronger profession perk is something we’re investigating.

This could mean that they are looking at all professions, just Blacksmithing, or they know nothing.
I had originally read that as "Blacksmithing is sub-par and we're considering buffing" (which frankly confused me), but I now read it as "Blacksmithing may be ahead of the others due to Str/stat hybrid gems and thus requiring nerfing." This is an unfortunate repercussion from their buff to mixed gems which increased the desirability of meeting socket bonuses.

They've also announced that some classes are past their goals. I.e. some specs do too much damage in Beta and are gonna be nerfed. I have no idea what classes/specs this may impact, but don't be surprised if base or coefficients change on any of our attacks. Nothing is yet set in stone.

P.S. Judgement has been using the English spelling for how many years, now? But suddenly (MoP in general, I know it's not a brand new change) it's a priority to change it to the American Judgment? The grammar rule is "Drop the final e before a suffix beginning with a vowel (a, e, i, o, u) but not before a suffix beginning with a consonant." The letter 'e' doesn't disappear when you add a suffix to Atone, so why so judgemental about the 'e' in Judgement? We can now cry on forums that Blizzard hates Paladins so much that they even nerf our spelling!

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

Offline
Old 08/02/12, 2:59 PM   #146
Phantoms
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Sen'jin
Yeah. He gave quick reasoning about it when I asked in this thread: RIP "Judgement" - Forums - World of Warcraft

In other news, HotR gets changed in build 15929:
Hammer of the Righteous: Hammer the current target for 20% weapon damage, causing a wave of light that hits all targets within 8 yards for 1,050 Holy 0 yards for 30% Holy weapon damage and applying the Weakened Blows effect.

United States Offline
Old 08/02/12, 5:19 PM   #147
Pallytos
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Dunemaul
I'm curious to see how the plan to deal with BS being so good. It only gives 2 sockets. It seems to be more of a JC/BS issue...again. Didn't this exist in Wrath? Or maybe more accurately a gemming/BS issue. Now with the change to secondary stat weights on hybrid gems this all of a sudden makes BS the issue?

And Phantoms beat me to the HotR change.

Offline
Old 08/03/12, 1:48 AM   #148
Pallytos
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Dunemaul
So, just now on beta i tested the new Judgment.

It does stack censure.
It does proc seals.
It does apply the Seal of Justice slow component.

And as far as i can tell, judgment does not proc the heal from Seal of Insight. I never played holy, so I'm not sure if this was ever the case anyway.

HotR is bugged also, its not hitting secondary targets at all. This was practically predictable when they made the change to 0 yd radius. I thought it to be only a tooltip error, but atm it is not. Certainly this will be changed.

Last edited by Pallytos : 08/03/12 at 2:11 AM.

Offline
Old 08/03/12, 3:02 AM   #149
aylen86
Piston Honda
 
aylen86's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Malygos (EU)
Originally Posted by Pallytos View Post
It does stack censure.
It does proc seals.
It does apply the Seal of Justice slow component.
And it can be dodged and parried, even when judging from 30 yd range.

Confirmed the HotR AoE bug.

Offline
Old 08/03/12, 3:10 AM   #150
Pallytos
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Dunemaul
parry confirmed, just had one from outside of melee range.

Offline
Closed Thread

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Paladins

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[H]<Sad Panda>(Arthas-PVP) 3/13H LFM 25s Geistreiter /LFGuild 4 04/23/11 11:46 AM
Infraction for Mr.Panda: Durp! Kaubel The Banhammer 0 04/03/11 11:52 PM
Infraction for duffey83: Sad, Slow Panda Kaubel The Banhammer 0 12/04/10 11:07 PM
Infraction for panda: UI Thread Stupidity Kaubel The Banhammer 0 03/25/08 9:14 PM