[Ret 5.0 Pre-MoP] - Panda-ring to all players - Page 11

Exemplar · 08/03/12, 9:35 AM

Originally Posted by Phantoms

Yeah. He gave quick reasoning about it when I asked in this thread: RIP "Judgement" - Forums - World of Warcraft

In other news, HotR gets changed in build 15929:

While my post script was a joke, Ghostcrawler making a joke about a Glyph does not give any reasoning behind the change of verbiage. It was arbitrary. One legitimate spelling had no need to change to another legitimate spelling - unnecessary man hours (minutes?). Especially considering every week in Firelands Ragnaros would shout a homophonic misspelling when you entered his hallway - haven't been back since DS release, so dunno if it was ever fixed. I've seen/bugreported many other spelling errors on quest text (and there was some other mob/boss shout that was wrong that irked me, I don't recall who/where). Whomever is Blizzard's new spelling <Godwin's Law has been reached> has plenty of other work to be doing.

But that's beside the point. On more important topic, the impact of the HotR change is hard to tell based on tooltip - 20% physical + 30% Holy (no armour mitigation) sound good, but does it retain the SP coefficient? I can't find reference either direction. Using our normal Starshatter example, which is 12055-18084 damage with an average being 15070, we get 4521 damage. That's a lot more than 1050 damage, but a lot less than 1050 + 7020 (23.4% of 30k AP).

Nythan · 08/03/12, 7:22 PM

I was playing around on the PTR yesterday noticed a couple of things.

1. From what has been said on here, the highest DPS is to use TV at 5HP. However, since we only have 3(4) HP generators (judgment, CS/HoR, Exo, and at times HoW) there are times when i seem to be sitting around waiting for another HP generator to pop up to get to that 5HP. It is usually less than a GCD (~1sec but thats an estimate) but i just had a feeling that i should use TV if there isnt a HP generator i could use.

i.e.: TV(HP==5)>Exo>CS>Judgment>TV(4>HP>3).

i dont have alot of spare time to do the testing myself, but what are your thoughts? I could be completely wrong, it just seems weird to have empty space while DPSing.

2. I did a HoT dungeon in PTR. My gear was throttled to ilvl353 for the instance. However, i did notice i was pulling alot higher numbers than the other DPS. This is only one instance, of course, but after fighting Nozdormu (and the HourGlass, which I know will throw off any useful measurements) I was ~20k DPS higher than the next highest. Either the throttling wasnt working, the other DPS were really bad, or our CDs are very much OP.

Phantoms · 08/04/12, 12:02 AM

@Nythan: If I find myself with nothing else to hit (and this is at 90 on the Beta, not 85 on PTR), I try and use my level 90 talent as a filler before using a 3/4 HP TV. If there is nothing else to hit at 85, it sounds like you're right on the priority that the 3/4 HP TV is there as a last resort kind of thing.

If I'm not mistaken, this is the priority I've been following throughout the 25-man testing I've done so far:

Single Target: Inq > 5HP TV > HoW > Exo > CS > Judge > L90 Talent(ExeSent) > 3/4 HP TV

Multi Target: Inq > 5HP DS > Exo > HoW > HotR > Judge > L90 Talent(LightHamm) > 3-4HP DS

Also, here are my logs for some of the 25-man testing I was able to do, if they are of any help.

Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 25N (This fight will probably be the closest thing to a Patchwerk fight in T14. I was assigned to stay on the boss the entire time.)

Wind Lord Mel'jarak 25N (Heavy early AoE fight, pre-HotR change)

Lei Shi 25N (Single target with some adds, our lack of AoE without needing a target is going to hurt us during Hide)

Spirit Kings 25N (Single target, behaves like Omnitron)

Garalon 25N (Single target with a couple extra targets in his legs, however, not a good Patchwerk fight with movement)

I could also give experience-based suggestions on talent choices for each fight on 25's, if people want me to.

lîte · 08/04/12, 2:31 AM

Also, a clarification on the previous update about Judgment and its interaction with seals: Seal of Truth will affect Judgment (both damage and Censure application). The other seals will not.

Rejoice! Looks like we'll have our Censure able to be applied with Judgment once again.

Pallytos · 08/04/12, 2:51 AM

Originally Posted by lîte

Rejoice! Looks like we'll have our Censure able to be applied with Judgment once again.

The quote you are referencing is actually saying this: Seal of Righteousness and Seal of Justice seal dmg will not proc from judgment. Right now on beta, it is proccing the seal dmg of each. Apparently that is only going to be specific to SoT seal dmg in the new build.

And yes, as was stated earlier, its stacking censure.

Also, in that same blue post the parry/dodge affecting Judgment, as well as the absurd 0yd radius on HotR are already fixed for the next build.

Levothan · 08/04/12, 10:20 AM

What is y'all take on seal weaving? Start with Seal of Truth get your five stack of censure and switch to Seal of Justice for the higher weapon damage. Then switch back to Seal of Truth to refresh censure. Also is Sanctified Wrath the better option between Holy Avenger and Divine Purpose?

aylen86 · 08/04/12, 10:54 AM

I don't think that 2% more damage is ever worth losing two global cooldowns every 15 seconds and the risk to lose a full censure stack. The gain from sealweaving has to be greater than two fillers (i.e. level 90 ultimate: 60 - 120k damage or two judgments) at least.

I'm sure Exemplar can back up this with his math.

Pallytos · 08/04/12, 6:34 PM

Originally Posted by Levothan

What is y'all take on seal weaving? Start with Seal of Truth get your five stack of censure and switch to Seal of Justice for the higher weapon damage. Then switch back to Seal of Truth to refresh censure. Also is Sanctified Wrath the better option between Holy Avenger and Divine Purpose?

Holy Avenger is the far superior talent for one reason...it turns your weapon into THE ASHBRINGER for its duration. Yes, thats right, your weapon turns into a model of The Ashbringer.

on a more serious note, I think its going to come down to the type of fight. For example, on a Spine-type fight where burst is important at predictable intervals Divine Purpose might not be so great. Also, individual play style can't be forgotten either, especially since talents are so easily changeable if one is significantly better than the other for a certain fight. I imagine they are tweaked to be very close to each other on patchwerk fights. I know this isn't a specific answer to your question, because I'm sure it an be calculated which actually does more dmg, but having played this game for quite some time, and read what the devs have intended for these new talents...usually they(talents) are pretty close to each other and "what talent you enjoy the most" wont adversely affect you.

Exemplar · 08/07/12, 8:56 AM

Originally Posted by Pallytos

Holy Avenger is the far superior talent for one reason...it turns your weapon into THE ASHBRINGER for its duration. Yes, thats right, your weapon turns into a model of The Ashbringer.

Do I get my human racial Expertise bonus when my axe is pretending it's the Ashbringer?

Also more seriously:
Seal Twisting presently looks to be a big loss for the very reason aylen86 listed - not enough free GCD. It hasn't been a viable mechanic since BC and Blizz didn't seem happy about it and has aimed to steer clear since.

Pallytos, you say Judgement won't be able to be parry/dodged? Can you please link the post? I thought dodge/parry was the entire point of changing it to a long-distance melee attack. Otherwise the change seems to only impact the chance for things to proc (in our favour). The only difference between a spell and a melee attack which can be used at range that causes unavoidable Holy (which means unreduced by armour) damage is that the second can proc melee-attack mechanics.

Last number crunch on Holy Avenger vs Sanctified Wrath vs Divine Purpose put DP at the bottom and HA/SW within spitting distance of one another. We'll need finalized numbers to really determine, but I believe presently the first tier would incline towards Sanctified Wrath due to the tier bonus reducing AW CD. Regardless, if they are relatively balanced, DP will always lose. On-demand (HA is a use ability and SW is tied to a use ability) will always average to superior than random-across-entire-fight (DP), even before you pair it with enhancing trinkets or CD, because you can ensure it occurs during important phases of any fight. 30 seconds of run-around-can't-hit-anything sucks for DP, but is awesome for the other two as it's wearing off a portion of the CD and bringing you closer to another burst phase.

Final talent will be very much add/single-target based. Execution seems no-brainer for single-target fights, while Hammer seems no-brainer for huge numbers of adds. Where Prism fits is hard to determine - it presently appears more appealing as a Holy/Prot selection due to the healing portion, but may find a niche for targets between X (2?) and Y (5?).

cremor · 08/07/12, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Pallytos, you say Judgement won't be able to be parry/dodged? Can you please link the post?

Beta Class Balance Analysis - Forums - World of Warcraft

I thought dodge/parry was the entire point of changing it to a long-distance melee attack.

It's melee again because of PvP: Beta Class Balance Analysis - Forums - World of Warcraft

Exemplar · 08/07/12, 3:57 PM

Originally Posted by cremor

It's melee again because of PvP.

Right. But this PvP change ends as a net buff for our class in PvE. Spell means cannot be parried or dodged and no armour mitigation. Judgement will gain all these benefits of a spell, yet be a melee attack. As melee it can proc slow/root/reflect mechanics such as Frost Armour or Thorns, it can also proc any other on-melee mechanic.

This means Judgement has a chance to proc many types of trinkets, innate weapon procs, as well as many types of weapon enchants. We thus gain more damage procs or greater average up-time on stat increasing buffs from these sources. A small detail like this can make the difference between an item/enchant being merely okay for a class to being phenomenal (reference how Tiny Abomination in a Jar compared for various classes - from trash to ZOMG).

I really thought it would be able to be parried/dodged. Which is still pretty moot in PvE since we cap Hit/Exp, but would mean a fraction more PvP consideration than just proccing defensive spells (I believe it's not uncommon to be below Hit/Exp cap in PvP).

Thanks for the links.

Nythan · 08/07/12, 8:26 PM

MMO-champion is showing another round of nerfs/buffs going out. Relevant to us rets:

MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft News and Raiding Strategies

Hammer of Wrath (Retribution) Hurls a magical hammer that strikes an enemy for (1,470 + 128.8% of SP) Holy damage and generates a charge of Holy Power.

Judgment (Retribution) A magic attack that unleashes the energy of a Seal to cause (562 + 50.8% of SP) Holy damage, generate one charge of Holy Power, and apply the Physical Vulnerability debuff to a target.

Sanctity of Battle: (Retribution) Melee haste effects lower the cooldown and global cooldown of your Judgment, Crusader Strike, Hammer of the Righteous, Exorcism, and Hammer of Wrath.

Seal of Righteousness: Fills you with Holy Light, causing melee attacks to deal 6% weapon damage to all targets within 8 yards.

Seal of Truth: Fills you with Holy Light, causing melee attacks to deal 12% additional Holy damage and apply Censure to the target. Censure Deals ((107 + 9.4% of SP) * 5) additional Holy damage over 15 sec.

Divine Storm: An area attack that consumes 3 charges of Holy Power to cause 135% weapon damage as Holy damage to all enemies within 8 yards.

Exorcism: Causes 6,960 Holy damage and generates a charge of Holy Power.

Sword of Light: Increases the damage you deal with two-handed melee weapons by 10%.

Templar's Verdict A powerful weapon strike that consumes 3 charges of Holy Power to deal 280% weapon damage plus 1,918.

Hammer of the Righteous: Hammer the current target for 20% weapon damage, causing a wave of light that hits all targets within 8 yards for 30% Holy weapon damage and applying the Weakened Blows effect.

Holy Avenger Abilities that generate Holy Power will deal 30% additional damage and healing, and generate 3 charges of Holy Power for the next 15 sec.

Sanctified Wrath Avenging Wrath also increases healing received by 20%.

Divine Purpose: Abilities that cost Holy Power have a 25% chance to cause the Divine Purpose effect. Divine Purpose Your next Holy Power ability will consume no Holy Power and will cast as if 3 Holy Power were consumed. Lasts 8 sec.

Looks like most of our HP generators and seals got nerfed, but Finishers and some talents got buffs.

aylen86 · 08/07/12, 11:57 PM

Blue post to these changes, looks like preparation for final tuning (expect additional tuning for other melee classes):

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Originally Posted by Paladinchaz

Ret took it to the face this build. Was it 'doing more damage than intended'?

No, just you Chaz.

We have made several adjustments based on player feedback, raid testing, and fixing some bugs. Some of the changes were made to keep secondary stats scaling appropriately and some were when specs were doing too much damage. Here's a quick cheat sheet for where we are. Even "tuned" does not mean set in stone and ready for ship.

Priest -- Shadow roughly tuned.
Warlock -- roughly tuned except for Sacrifice.
Mage -- roughly tuned except Arcane and Invocation.
Druid -- Feral and Balance tuned except for Dream of Cenarius.
Paladin -- Ret roughly tuned.
Rogue -- tuned (but we'll look at Assassination numbers posted above).
Shaman -- tuned.
Hunter -- tuned.

We are working on monk, warrior and DK next.

Bluepost: Beta Class Balance Analysis - Forums - World of Warcraft

So don't worry! I just don't understand the changes to Holy Avenger which makes it a no-brainer and the big nerf to our 2H-weapon damage on top. Even now HA it's vastly superior in bomb situations, because you're able to spam Divine Storm. Now you get a DS and a damage buff on top.

But it's still beta, so prepare for heavy number tuning.

Tyresious · 08/08/12, 3:54 AM

Reposting this here from MMO Champion, now that I have an account.

After messing around on PTR for a while, I started to notice that the GCD for Templars Verdict seemed to be the same as all of my other abilities. So, I created a premade Ret Pally, loaded her full of haste gems and reforging (2.4k rating, just under 19.5%), and found out that even at high haste levels (39%, or 5k rating thanks to AoK) the GCD for Templars Verdict is being lowered at the same (perceivable) rate as all my regular fillers. This is happening despite Sanctity of Battle not mentioning that it lowers the GCD for TV at all. In fact, this seems to be the case for Inquisition and Divine Storm as well.

Balhale · 08/08/12, 5:33 AM

Did some testing with my 90 ret pally on ES.

It is scaling at net 228.3% of attack power, with 10024 base damage. These agree with the tooltip.

The individual ticks :

tick #   | base dmg |  ap coeff | % of total
   1         413.1      .0939       4.12
   2         453.0      .1035       4.52
   3         498.7      .1138       4.99
   4         549.8      .1250       5.48
   5         603.8      .1377       6.03
   6         664.5      .1513       6.63
   7         731.3      .1663       7.29
   8         805.1      .1829       8.02
   9         884.5      .2017       8.82
  10        4420.7      1.007      44.10