[Ret 5.0 Pre-MoP] - Panda-ring to all players - Page 13

Balhale · 08/13/12, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

OP updated - I don't read forums on weekends. Please be patient. ES has an ugly tooltip.

Regarding DP > HA/SW, are you configuring to link cooldowns and manage Inq intelligently (using HA with AW when possible)? While it's certainly possible that DP is now uniformly ahead (that was a big buff it received), it feels wrong to my gut (wrong doesn't mean untrue) compared to on-demand burst linked with CDs. I know in the past the Simcraft default has pretty much been set up to utilize cooldowns, trinkets, etc when available (only referencing their own remaining CD timers). Again, in the past, I've managed to get noticeably better total damage from a Sim by altering the conditions to more closely match actual gameplay. More intelligent use of AW, Zealotry, GoAK, and Trinkets made large increases in DPS, somewhere on the order of 3-5%. By logical analysis I was able to determine that some CD(s) would have been used when you had zero HP or Inq was at 5 sec remaining, meaning part/all of a CD was 'wasted' due to poor timing. Example - first AW and Zealotry was linked, but second AW would occur when HP is less than 3, so Zealotry would engage a good 5-10 seconds later, thus throwing them off the entire rest of the sim length.

I'm guessing HA = SW only because 4 piece tier bonus. Without tier bonus they were roughly equivalent prior to HA getting a large buff and SW a large nerf (via HoW reduction) - the only way I could explain their equivalency in BiS would be the AW CD reduction. This would simply confirm that SW will have an issue during the following tier. Also if you're complaining about free GCD for ES/HP/LH, then SW sounds like it would have a GCD issue on top of the fact that it may lose some oomph if HoW is relatively low in priority (entirely possible).

Yes - I have the cooldowns set to be linked as long as it doesn't delay them by more than 10-15 seconds. My testing hasn't shown a dps gain from more delay than that. GoAK is used 10 seconds before avenging wraths. I need to double check inquisition duration before cds, thanks for reminding me.

DP is a good 4k dps ahead of the other two according to the sim. Of course, that's on a Patchwerk fight with no burst phases or vulnerabilities to line the other cds up with. Best talent will almost certainly depend on the fight. All talent choices are pretty GCD locked. Wait times vary between 6% (SancWrath with ExecutionSentence) and 3% (Divine Purpose and Holy Prism).

@Starfox

Light's Hammer has dynamic AP/SP tracking - if I get both my trinkets up and use it then cancel the trinket buffs the damage hits drop. 8 ticks per cast.

At 618 AP/309 SP: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

At 21620 AP/10810 SP: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Elidra · 08/13/12, 3:19 PM

Perhaps I'm reading the sim output wrongly, but it says there's 29.6% overflow on Divine Purpose Holy Power, and I'm not really sure how that's possible with how the proc works, since it's impossible to proc without consuming it, and the 3HP it's worth don't sit in the normal bank.

Judgement is also showing a 10.7% overflow, and I don't see how that's possible with a sane priority list. If I'm simply misunderstanding something, I apologize.

Edit: talking about the sim output here: Simulationcraft Results

Ronark · 08/13/12, 4:31 PM

Originally Posted by Elidra

Perhaps I'm reading the sim output wrongly, but it says there's 29.6% overflow on Divine Purpose Holy Power, and I'm not really sure how that's possible with how the proc works, since it's impossible to proc without consuming it, and the 3HP it's worth don't sit in the normal bank.

Judgement is also showing a 10.7% overflow, and I don't see how that's possible with a sane priority list. If I'm simply misunderstanding something, I apologize.

Edit: talking about the sim output here: Simulationcraft Results

2 possible reasoning I can see:

Judgment- If you look at the Player's talent, they have LAotL, meaning that Judgment was used for the speed boost at 5 HP.
DP- The only thing I can think of is DP procing itself like on Live, or a miscalculation of using DP at 5 Holy Power.

Balhale · 08/13/12, 4:35 PM

Judgment was a problem in the priority list - the action for keeping up the physical damage debuff was triggering every judgment cd and making it go off on cd. Fixed now.

I think the overflow # on Divine Purpose is from how the sim keeps track of the bonus holy power - it is being triggered and consumed at the proper rate as far as I can tell. I will do some more checking on that issue.

That fix and a change to reflect the ICD of the DMC trinket - which very good - puts ret up to about 109k w/ Divine Purpose. HA/SW are still lagging it by about 4k. You won't see the updated version on the site until tonight or tomorrow probably.

Icos · 08/13/12, 7:04 PM

I noticed the simulation's gear setup is prioritizing haste over crit. Is that accurate? Also the sim is using Dancing Steel. Did Windsong get nerfed/fixed? It was able to triple proc and give all 3 stats at one point.

Balhale · 08/13/12, 8:50 PM

Originally Posted by Icos

I noticed the simulation's gear setup is prioritizing haste over crit. Is that accurate? Also the sim is using Dancing Steel. Did Windsong get nerfed/fixed? It was able to triple proc and give all 3 stats at one point.

It should be crit > haste by a small margin - the updated gear setup I made hasn't pushed up to the site yet. We've been asked not to use Windsong atm because we're not 100% sure the sim implementation is correct. Based on the last set of stat weights I found Dancing Steel should be better - 40% uptime on 1650 str is slightly better than 30% (in game testing avg percent) on each of 1500 mastery/crit/haste, but the sim has Windsong as a 1.2k dps increase at only 15% uptime on each buff.

Exemplar · 08/14/12, 8:49 AM

Originally Posted by Balhale

That fix and a change to reflect the ICD of the DMC trinket - which very good - puts ret up to about 109k w/ Divine Purpose. HA/SW are still lagging it by about 4k. You won't see the updated version on the site until tonight or tomorrow probably.

If this is using the 504-3 release (the latest I saw available yesterday), you may also want to fix AW. Currently it only activates when GoAK pet is present, which means you're using a 3 min CD at most every 5 min. In my current Cata gear just removing the if statement increased my DPS by 1k (34.5k to 35.5k, almost 3%). I got a further 500 DPS by trying to make it intelligent and delay 10 seconds after GoAK if available, or run if GoAK was on too long CD.

That should at least increase the power of SW, since you would have more overall AW time. Possibly increase HA with more of the CD matched with AW for greater synergistic damage. Hopefully that will help close the DP gap.

Curious why Judgement was going off every CD - I saw that setting, but assumed it was functioning properly and ignoring since the default Sim has physical debuff on by default.

Also if 40% of 1650 Str (660 average) is better than 30% of 4500 Secondary (1350 average*), then Blizzard needs to tweak some knobs. Slightly more than twice the Secondary Stats should be at least equal to our Primary. If not, even the heavily buffed mixed gems would be worse than straight reds.

On the topic of Crit vs Haste, if we're as close to GCD locked as you're reporting, then it makes sense that Haste is rather less valuable. Shortening CDs on a bunch of attacks is of no assistance if you don't have the extra GCD to use them all. We may find our spec has an effective soft cap on Haste beyond which it's more effective to reforge elsewhere.

* Not that I think Windsong is functioning appropriately, I expect it to only proc 1 stat at a time by release, just comparing based on how it is currently functioning.

Balhale · 08/14/12, 2:08 PM

I'm getting 5 AW used at 95 second intervals with the tier bonus atm. The line you are referring to in the action list is making sure that GoAK is used 10 seconds before it, but it still fires on cd after the initial 10 second delay.

I don't know if the release build has been updated with proper default action lists - it's best to build from the SVN repository for the most up to date build.

As far as secondary stats goes, I got mixed up - Windsong calculates better at 30% uptime, but not at 15%, but the sim shows an increase even at 15%. It also does only proc 1 stat at a time right now - its just that the proc chance is high enough that you can have all 3 buffs up at once occasionally. Last set of weights I got for the BiS profile were strength - 3, hit 3.5, exp 2.8, mastery 2.6, crit 2.0, haste 1.7.

Edit: Yeah, the latest release build still has some bugs relating to ret in it and doesn't have proper default action lists.

Balhale · 08/14/12, 3:53 PM

And joy, more ret nerfs.

CS down to 115% weapon damage plus 667 from 130% weapon damage plus 913.
Judgment to 50% sp + 30%ap + 517 down from 50.8% sp + 31.8%ap + 562
TV buff reverted - down to 250% weapon damage plus 1,428 from 280% weapon damage plus 1,918

And the lone buff:
HA duration extended to 18 seconds.

Thunderchylde · 08/14/12, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by Balhale

And joy, more ret nerfs.

CS down to 115% weapon damage plus 667 from 130% weapon damage plus 913.
Judgment to 50% sp + 30%ap + 517 down from 50.8% sp + 31.8%ap + 562
TV buff reverted - down to 250% weapon damage plus 1,428 from 280% weapon damage plus 1,918

And the lone buff:
HA duration extended to 18 seconds.

It looks like a lot of specs had damage reduced - so not necessarily a ret-specific nerf:

Originally Posted by mmo-champ

Bloodthirst Instantly attack the target, dealing (was: 90% weapon damage plus 1,121) 80% weapon damage plus 887 with your main hand weapon and restoring 1% of your health.

Shred went down, Fireball went down, Mind Flay went down as well. I would expect a blue post about them bringing a lot of the damage down across the board...

EDIT:

Here it is:

A new beta build is going up soon that has damage nerfs for many classes and specs in order to hit our target goals. Predictably, this has led to many posts of what I would generously characterize as light on useful feedback.

Here is how to prevent your posts from falling on deaf developer ears:

-- Tell us how much damage you were doing before.
-- Tell us how much damage you are doing now.
-- Tell us how much damage you think you should be doing.
-- Tell us who is beating you.

Beta Class Balance Analysis - Forums - World of Warcraft

Balhale · 08/15/12, 11:51 AM

Stat weight run from SimC post nerf:
Free Cloud Storage - MediaFire

Just download it, don't try to look at it on mediafire.

Especially concerning is how weak strength is, especially relative to some of the other weights I have seen from other classes (mages/warlocks have int at 4.5 to 5 dps per, while str is at 2.87 for us). Means we will probably scale badly going into next tier relative to other classes as we scale roughly equally well with secondaries but worse with primaries. Also means that pure yellows may be a gain over pure reds or oranges.

Exemplar · 08/16/12, 9:06 AM

OP Updated for the 8/14 changes.

I must express worry that Blizzard plans to release the patch on the 28th and is still tuning what appears to be every single spec. Historically Ret has suffered when there was a change within the last one-to-two weeks of a Beta. It has caused wild seesaws on live as something was suddenly buffed/nerfed to resolve some problem. This time every single class is in this boat. While it's easy to argue that it's not an issue since we've been in Dragon Soul since Methuselah was knee-high to a grasshopper, but conversely if some group of players dislike the patch it could influence them against purchasing an Xpac they may otherwise have purchased.

I can only hope the majority of changes stop by the end of this week with maybe one or two knobs turned to correct fallout, or they delay releasing the patch. Anything else is unpleasant to we players.

aylen86 · 08/16/12, 3:23 PM

List of buffs from the latest beta build (15983)

Paladin - Ret

Crusader Strike An instant strike that causes 115% weapon damage plus 667. 125% weapon damage plus 791. 3% / 15% of Base Mana.
Hammer of Wrath (Retribution) Hurls a magical hammer that strikes an enemy for (1,470 + 128.8% 1,838 + 161.0% of SP) Holy damage and generates a charge of Holy Power.
Judgment (Retribution) A magic attack that unleashes the energy of a Seal to cause (571 + 50.0% 623 + 54.6% of SP) Holy damage, generate one charge of Holy Power, and apply the Physical Vulnerability debuff to a target.
Templar's Verdict A powerful weapon strike that consumes 3 charges of Holy Power to deal 250% weapon damage plus 1,428 275% weapon damage plus 1,727.

Source: MMO-Champion - Mists of Pandaria Beta - Build 15983

Thunderchylde · 08/16/12, 3:25 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

OP Updated for the 8/14 changes.

I must express worry that Blizzard plans to release the patch on the 28th and is still tuning what appears to be every single spec. Historically Ret has suffered when there was a change within the last one-to-two weeks of a Beta. It has caused wild seesaws on live as something was suddenly buffed/nerfed to resolve some problem. This time every single class is in this boat. While it's easy to argue that it's not an issue since we've been in Dragon Soul since Methuselah was knee-high to a grasshopper, but conversely if some group of players dislike the patch it could influence them against purchasing an Xpac they may otherwise have purchased.

I can only hope the majority of changes stop by the end of this week with maybe one or two knobs turned to correct fallout, or they delay releasing the patch. Anything else is unpleasant to we players.

Now you have to update them for the 8/16 changes - we are getting a buff again, though I notice that CS mana is going to 15% - I wonder if that is actually only for Holy (as the promised) or if it's across the board.

Rasputin · 08/16/12, 3:50 PM

Originally Posted by aylen86

List of buffs from the latest beta build (15983)

Source: MMO-Champion - Mists of Pandaria Beta - Build 15983

Also,

Templar's Verdict A powerful weapon strike that consumes 3 charges of Holy Power to deal 250% weapon damage plus 1,428. 275% weapon damage plus 1,727.