[Ret 5.0 Pre-MoP] - Panda-ring to all players - Page 14

Ronark · 08/16/12, 4:11 PM

Judging from the quote in aylen's post, CS's mana cost is spec specific (3% for Ret/Prot, 15% for Holy).

Charybdis · 08/16/12, 7:33 PM

Based on the post at Beta Class Balance Analysis - Forums - World of Warcraft, Holy is the only spec that will have CS at 15% mana.

aylen86 · 08/17/12, 12:17 AM

Confirmed. Screenshots from ingame:

Scheduled change to Divine Purpose:

We're changing Divine Purpose so its chance scales with Holy Power. The 25% is with 3. You should be able to benefit from using a 1 Holy Power ability, but we don't want to encourage fishing.

Marsha · 08/17/12, 12:38 AM

With today's build CS is still costs1800 mana.

With a total of 60k mana, you barely notice your bar move, and our regen is fairly fast. Mana cost for CS is pretty much irrelevant.

Ronark · 08/17/12, 2:19 AM

For most PvE scenarios yes. In others, you may use your mana for something else (FoL, Emanc, etc) and a lower CS cost ensures a fluid rotation that's not mana dependant.

aylen86 · 08/18/12, 1:39 AM

Blizzard is very busy in balancing stuff: just another beta build (16004)!

Protection & Retribution

Hammer of the Righteous now does 35% Holy weapon damage, up from 30%.

Engineering

Synapse Springs Permanently attaches synapse springs to your gloves, allowing you to increase your highest primary statistic by 2,940 for 10 sec. 1,920 for 10 sec.

cky71321 · 08/19/12, 12:32 PM

Engineering still comes out to 320 overall Strength, with the benefit of being up for each Execution Sentence/Light's Hammer should those talents be present.

Exemplar, have we discussed the priority of a DP TV at all? I can't seem to sim anything higher than having it set with equal priority to 5 HP TV, so I'm assuming that's the way to go.

Balhale · 08/19/12, 12:48 PM

DP TV, Hammer, and Exo are all roughly the same in priority - I can't get a dps difference above margin of error from exchanging any of those on the priority list.

Edit: Hammer is most definitely above Exo on the priority list though - the hit itself does as much or more damage depending on ilvl and it benefits from mastery + has a shorter cd.

Balhale · 08/19/12, 9:59 PM

Further optimization of action lists puts DP only 1k ahead of SW at BiS gear levels with HA another 2.5k behind SW on a patchwerk fight.

On SimC's helterskelter fight:
0 casting,cooldown=30,duration=3,first=15
1 movement,cooldown=30,duration=5
2 stun,cooldown=60,duration=2
3 invulnerable,cooldown=120,duration=3

SW pulled 1k ahead of DP which was again about 2.5-3k ahead of HA

I haven't gotten all of the action list improvements into SimC yet and there is a bug with inquisition not refreshing properly sub 2 seconds, but I should have those worked out shortly.

Holylegolas · 08/19/12, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

On the topic of Crit vs Haste, if we're as close to GCD locked as you're reporting, then it makes sense that Haste is rather less valuable. Shortening CDs on a bunch of attacks is of no assistance if you don't have the extra GCD to use them all. We may find our spec has an effective soft cap on Haste beyond which it's more effective to reforge elsewhere.

Does this still hold true with haste also reducing the GCD as stated in the tooltip for Sanctity of Battle?

Balhale · 08/19/12, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Holylegolas

Does this still hold true with haste also reducing the GCD as stated in the tooltip for Sanctity of Battle?

The problem is that most of hastes value is going into that GCD reduction alone by the time we are in 14H gear, and that makes it slightly less valuable. It is much better than it was in cata though, only trailing crit by a little bit. It is probably worth more at lower gear levels, though I haven't run stat weight sims at those gear levels yet.

Exemplar · 08/20/12, 9:56 AM

OP Updated with DP tweak and the base/coefficient changes on multiple attacks. Added note about Synapse Springs.

Originally Posted by Holylegolas

Does this still hold true with haste also reducing the GCD as stated in the tooltip for Sanctity of Battle?

10% of 1.5 seconds (GCD) is ~0.14*. 10% of 4.5 seconds (CS CD) is ~0.41 seconds. 10% of 6 seconds (Judge or HoW CD) is ~0.55 seconds. As you can see, Haste will increase the frequency of access to abilities 3 to 4 times faster than granting more time to use them.

Thus the gains from Haste would diminish earlier than some hard cap, while Crit only increases in value as you gain other stats. The more Haste you have, the more attacks (auto and ability) you are making, which means more chances to Crit. Thus one more point of Crit is more valuable than previously. We are nearly guaranteed a 10% Baseline Haste due to raid buffs.

* Haste isn't (Length * (100% - Haste %)), it's (Length / (100% + Haste %), so the number isn't as clean as you'd think at first glance. 10% Haste on GCD is actually 1.5/110% ~= 1.3636, or about 0.14 gain.

Divine Purpose
If we do have little GCD wiggle-room, the second disadvantage of DP (first being not on-demand) shows up: Where to fit the blasted things. With everything and its brother generating HP it seems to fit way down on the priority. Even at bottom of the pile, the only time I see an issue is when you proc off a 3HP TV (rather than a 5) and things all drop off CD. If you use TV/Inq at 5 HP, then 'worst case' you can use 3 HP generators and your talent (ES/HolPris/LH) which pushes you back to 5 HP and the need to dump. That's 4 GCD, or sub-6 seconds of an 8 sec Buff. You still have 2+ seconds to use the DP before it expires. Only if you were at 0 HP and could generate up to 5 would it be an issue.

So I'd express it in this fashion:
If Inq_Timer < 2, refresh (which would use your DP if present)
If DP_Timer < 2, TV
Everything else (this line is alphabetical, not a proposed priority: 5-HP TV (eats the DP first), CS, ES, Exo, HoW, J)
If DP or HP >=3, TV

I think that would get you the tightest/best performance.

Thunderchylde · 08/20/12, 11:23 AM

Exemplar: Given the changes to Inq refreshes shouldn't we be refreshing at Inq <= 3 as that will take us back up to 30-33s?

Theck · 08/20/12, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

10% of 1.5 seconds (GCD) is ~0.14*. 10% of 4.5 seconds (CS CD) is ~0.41 seconds. 10% of 6 seconds (Judge or HoW CD) is ~0.55 seconds. As you can see, Haste will increase the frequency of access to abilities 3 to 4 times faster than granting more time to use them.

Thus the gains from Haste would diminish earlier than some hard cap, while Crit only increases in value as you gain other stats. The more Haste you have, the more attacks (auto and ability) you are making, which means more chances to Crit. Thus one more point of Crit is more valuable than previously. We are nearly guaranteed a 10% Baseline Haste due to raid buffs.

* Haste isn't (Length * (100% - Haste %)), it's (Length / (100% + Haste %), so the number isn't as clean as you'd think at first glance. 10% Haste on GCD is actually 1.5/110% ~= 1.3636, or about 0.14 gain.

I don't believe this is an accurate representation of haste. The cooldown of CS is reduced by ~0.41 seconds. However, the three GCDs that you use during that cooldown are each reduced by ~0.14 seconds, for a total of ~0.42 s (in actuality the two numbers are identical if properly calculated and rounded). Similarly for J, the net reduction in 4 GCDs is ~0.52 s.

In other words, haste increases the frequency of access and the frequency of use in exactly the same way. It simply "compresses" the rotation - what you could do in X seconds before, you can now do in X/1.1 seconds with 10% haste.

Note that this assumes all of the fillers used experience a hasted GCD as well. I don't know if that's strictly true for Ret, but I would guess it is, or at least close enough for rotation discussion.

Ronark · 08/20/12, 12:42 PM

The problem with SoB and haste is that it does not affect our Finishers. So while you may earn 3 HP (via fillers) in a ~0.42 sec quicker window, it isn't a true X/1.1 timeframe reduction. In reality, you are actually reducing the time it takes to ramp up to a Finisher itself. The question becomes that because of this relationship, how does DP affect the value of Haste?