That would certainly reduce the effect of haste slightly, based on the representation of TV in your rotation. It's still compressing the bulk of your rotation though, so 10% haste will likely be an X/1.07 to X/1.08 increase, on average (example: if TV is 25% of your casts, then 10% haste turns X into X/1.0732).


Different topic entirely: I believe I have stumbled across an interesting "feature" of Glyph of WoG, and to a lesser extent Glyph of Harsh Words.

Consider that, if using GoWoG, you might choose to trade one TV for one WoG. Doing so has the associated damage costs and gains:
cost: 1 TV, plus hand of light damage, plus seal damage
gain: 6 seconds of 9% increased damage, or 6*0.09*(DPS) total damage gained.

The ballpark estimate I was given for a L90 ret in starter gear was around 15k weapon damage and 30k AP, giving me a TV in the ~62k regime. I'm using normalized weapon damage here, or 15k+3.3*AP/14. Exemplar's formula from the first page uses unnormalized weapon damage, but I believe this is in error. A quick test with an 85 premade shows a clear 3.3*AP/14 scaling for TV, even when using a 2.6-speed weapon.

We'd also get an additional ~20% from Hand of Light (~12.4k), and 12% weapon damage from SoT (~2.6k), for a total of 67k damage from one TV cast. For simplicity, lets round up to 70k damage.

To make up that 70k damage from Glyph of WoG's effect, we need
6*0.09*(DPS)=70000, or
DPS = 129k DPS.

That seems like a fairly high bar, but if we're starting out this expansion near 100k DPS, we will very quickly eclipse it, making GoWoG maintenance a DPS increase.

The Harsh Words glyph simply lowers the barrier to entry. WoG's formula is (assuming 3 HP):
3*(5538+0.49*SP) = 16614+0.735*AP,
or 38.7k damage at 30k attack power. That mitigates a significant part of the 70k damage we need to make up, reducing the break point to
DPS = (70000-38700)/(6*0.09) = ~58k DPS.

In other words, probably a DPS increase in starter gear.

If anyone can catch an error in these calculations (which are approximations, admittedly, but fairly reasonable ones), please point them out. Has Simcraft implemented these glyphs yet? If so, we should be able to corroborate or refute this effect pretty easily.

Thunderchylde - you're right. Anywhere under 3 is good. 2 was just an old rule of thumb I seem to keep using.

Theck - TV is unnormalized on live. No idea why, but it's the only way the numbers matched testing. They may have fixed this with MoP, as it never made sense.

Your math appears reasonably accurate and I like the out-of-the-box thinking.

I'm bumping TV to 72k due to Inquisition effects. However, as Ronark points out WoG also bumps to 50.3k. What's missing is the fact you do not have 6 seconds of 109% DPS to increase this, you have 4.5 seconds (you lose the full GCD of WoG) plus any autoattacks that fell during that GCD.

I get a number partway between your two values.
(72000-50300)/(4.5*0.09) = ~53.6k DPS breakpoint.

Definitely looks feasible - probably even at L85 in the 5.0x patch and the lower target required. Congratulations, Theck. You just made Holy hate Ret, because we're going to cause Blizz to nerf the WoG glyphs.

I'll check if the WoG glyphs are implemented or not and if not get them implemented. Also fix a bug with inquisition refreshing properly and only getting 30 seconds, not 50 seconds of duration.

The sim has 65k dps at 463 enchanted/gemmed gear, so that dps breakpoint is definitely feasible.

That also means that if this is a dps gain, use of GoMassExo for aoe fights will come at the cost of GoTV's 10% less damage taken.

Are we really losing a full 1.5s global to Word of Glory, since it's a spell and should already have its GCD reduced by haste regardless of Sanctity of Battle? Or is the assumption of a full 1.5s simply not taking into account incidental haste on gear and raid-wide spell haste buffs? Seems a poor assumption to make if we're already assuming the presence of the 10% melee haste.

Well, it wasn't completely fruitless either way, then!

I figure Simcraft is the proper tool to troubleshoot this anyhow, as it's complicated enough that napkin math will only ever be an approximation at best. It may be that it's only beneficial under certain circumstances, like during Holy Avenger or with Divine Purpose procs, such that you can get a TV into the window. But the break-point seemed frighteningly low to me.

The 6-second estimate is probably better at a certain threshold haste value, while 4.5 seconds is a more reasonable estimate for low haste, even though Censure and auto-attack will get the full benefit.

Note, however, that there's no such thing as a 10% melee haste buff.

My mistake; I honestly never noticed that before, while playing around with Holy.

True, it is an "attack speed" buff, but it still seems a somewhat appropriate moniker - for Retribution, anyway - considering the new interaction with SoB.

The attack speed buff does not interact with SoB precisely because it is not a melee haste buff.

In other news, I have the glyphs implemented in Simc, need to double check harsh words damage, but right now its about a 3% gain for DP profiles a 5% gain for SW profiles and a 4% gain for HA profiles at the T14H gear level. Enough to push SW to the head at 115k over DPs 113k. This is largely because of the profiles relative reliance on TV for their damage. Also note that for DP it was simming as a gain not to use DP procs on keeping the buff up. Net uptime for all three was approximately 70-75%, only casting WoG if the buff was down - no refreshes (dropped output). It's possible these results can be improved with different conditions for casting it.

It was also a gain for the RaidDummy (483 pvp gear ungemmed unenchanted with the internal test dummy conditions) profile, which had been doing 54k previously.

I'll push a build with the glyphs to SVN shortly once I get default actions updated.

Ignore everything above relating to the glyphs - there is a major bug where harsh words wog is not consuming 3 holy power properly, vastly inflating the glyphs' effectiveness.

Let's do some napkin math.

In the 6 seconds you have the 9% damage buff you would get roughly 2.5 autoattacks and 3 Censure ticks.

Auto + Censure in 6 seconds = 71072

Let's math a few different attacks:
Let's pretend you cast the WoG or use the TV, then get 2 attacks, as other things are on CD.
Baseline:
TV + CS + Judge (lowest gen) + 2.5 auto + 3 Censure + 4.5 Seal = 216573
TV + CS + Exo (highest gen) + 2.5 auto + 3 Censure + 4.5 Seal = 228671

WoG + ((CS + Judge (lowest gen) + 2.5 auto + 3 Censure + 4.5 Seal) * 1.09) = 197432
WoG + ((CS + Exo (highest gen) + 2.5 auto + 3 Censure + 4.5 Seal) * 1.09) = 210618

Analysis: Barring some math errors or misunderstanding of MoP mechanics (buffs/debuffs on attacks), I'm inclined to say not worth the effort. Having a 3rd ability to fit into your window might pull 1-2% more DPS for those able to absolutely maximize their effectiveness (i.e. not most players). DP may also increase the value (you'd be able to get a TV within the 9% window on occasion), but not by a huge margin (9% of a TV is only 7512).

Bottom line: If you have one more attack off CD and can fit it under the 9% (you've got at least 1 more free GCD, so this wouldn't be hard) then you may pull marginally ahead. If you have too much on CD and can't get more than a CD in the 4.5 second window, then you'd fall a bit further behind. Thus Napkin Math shows roughly equivalent.

Note unrelated to using WoG: Exo vs HoW. At this estimated gear level (30k AP) Exo beats HoW by a small margin. This is because the base damage of Exo is more than 3 times HoW. However, HoW scales faster. This means as AP increases HoW will pull ahead of Exo. I think this happens somewhere between dungeon and raid gear (or possibly leveling gear and dungeon gear).

Don't forget 1 factor which was left out, that HoW scales with Mastery where Exorcism doesn't (irrelivent for napkin math above but again proves faster gear scaling over Exorcism).

EDIT: I don't have the resources currently, but for all WoG formulas are we including the 30% increase in damage/healing provided by Sword of Light?

Shooting from the current tooltip I see on the beta at 85, WoG displays 6,665 damage and 11,264 healing per Holy Power spent. Since WoG's healing was recently increased by 30%, but not the damage, we get:

6,665 x 1.3 (Sword of Light) x 1.3 (Recent healing buff) = 11,264