[Ret 5.0 Pre-MoP] - Panda-ring to all players - Page 16

Exemplar · 08/21/12, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Ronark

EDIT: I don't have the resources currently, but for all WoG formulas are we including the 30% increase in damage/healing provided by Sword of Light?

Nope, didn't account that in my equations (looks like about 11k more damage). Another 2.5k for SoL on Judge. I also conveniently dropped Mastery values. If Mastery is at ~20% then we're looking at (9% * 20% =) 1.8% more damage from abilities which use it (most of our fillers). Push Mastery to 50% and we're at 4.5% more damage.

Rather than remath, I'll just say this should tip the WoG calcs to slightly higher than the baseline (rather than slightly lower). We're still looking at the 'possibly 1-2% increase if you're damn good' range. Possible, but recommended for most of us not to bother trying.

Thanks to all above for corrections.

Theck · 08/21/12, 1:04 PM

Also note that the WoG tooltip is not correct in this build - the base heal value is incorrect. It should be identical to the EF base heal tooltip, which is correct.

Ronark · 08/21/12, 1:38 PM

I don't think WoG/HW should be ruled out completely. If anything, HW gives us a ranged HP dump for mob transitions/target swaps (Morchok, Yorshaj when swapping to and from boss/ooze etc). As Balhale stated above the TV glyph can be dropped if AoE is beneficial for Exorcism, and WoG in itself could useful on any sort of gimmick fight. The number do point to not needing to implement either glyph, and at some point with Mastery values TV is sure to pull ahead and probably surpass the 9% damage gain. Only time will tell in later tiers.

Balhale · 08/21/12, 10:12 PM

The problem with using WoG as a ranged hp dump is that unless the separation from the boss is a very protracted period of time, enough to generate more than max hp, that hp can be held onto with no loss and used for harder hitting TVs later.

The only fight in DS I could see it being helpful on is H Blackhorn if you want to help get the drakes down a little more easily. I haven't done enough raid testing to be able to say which T14 fights it would be helpful for.

Cloudio · 08/22/12, 1:30 AM

Originally Posted by Balhale

The problem with using WoG as a ranged hp dump is that unless the separation from the boss is a very protracted period of time, enough to generate more than max hp, that hp can be held onto with no loss and used for harder hitting TVs later.

The only fight in DS I could see it being helpful on is H Blackhorn if you want to help get the drakes down a little more easily. I haven't done enough raid testing to be able to say which T14 fights it would be helpful for.

I think you know that this glyph is acting as the current talent '' selfless healer '' with different percentages . It's currently a pvp talent that boost your dps . Point is there was a study to use this talent in pve when it was implemented and as i remember everyone was against it , so might be the same case again . Some people are talking about using this glyph in tank spec on mop. Personally , i am not quite sure if we should add wog to our rotation , becoming abit odd .

Edit : On the other hand , i have been trying a combo of glyphs , i decided to go with Glyph of harsh words and glyph of world of glory in addition to glyph of inq . WoG doesn't give an increase dmg buff if it is casted on a target ( using harsh words ) , am not sure if this is a bug or it is meant to work this way .. otherwise they should fix the tooltip of GoWoG to'' inc dmg ....when you heal by wog '' instead of '' when you cast wog '' .
If it is a bug , then we might be lucky to have this combo and then apply both of the glyphs as damage boost ones . Am not a math guy but we might need inq glyph for better use of wog , hope someone will check this out .

One last thing to mention that , during wog gcd , the only dmg spells we can use is execution sentence ( for single target ) .

aylen86 · 08/22/12, 4:10 AM

Originally Posted by Cloudio

Edit : On the other hand , i have been trying a combo of glyphs , i decided to go with Glyph of harsh words and glyph of world of glory in addition to glyph of inq . WoG doesn't give an increase dmg buff if it is casted on a target ( using harsh words ) , am not sure if this is a bug or it is meant to work this way .. otherwise they should fix the tooltip of GoWoG to'' inc dmg ....when you heal by wog '' instead of '' when you cast wog '' .
If it is a bug , then we might be lucky to have this combo and then apply both of the glyphs as damage boost ones . Am not a math guy but we might need inq glyph for better use of wog , hope someone will check this out . .

Using the Inqisition glyph is a huge dps loss even for mediocre players and should not be considered viable.

The other thing you've observed is important to note:
Currently Glyph of Harsh Words and Glyph of Word of Glory don't interact with eachother. You can either spend your holy power to heal yourself and get the "Glyph of Word of Glory"-damage buff or attack the target directly and get no buff.

And as stated by Starfox above, ES does not update dynamically, it's a snapshot from your values right before it is casted. Disabling trinket buffs or losing the Glyph of WoG effect during ES ticks does not affect damage.

Exemplar · 08/22/12, 8:34 AM

As Cloudio says, the tooltip of the glyphs don't seem mutually exclusive, but if they seem to be acting that way - fine. Frankly, I'm glad. The idea that this glyphing is a DPS wash (or worse a gain) makes me ill. Doesn't mean I won't math it or wouldn't use it if the numbers showed it was a must, I just wouldn't like it.

Unrelated topic - I'm warming up my spreadsheet for next week as a 5.0.x L85 version (present gear, no use of 6th Talent). I don't have all the L85 spell base values, so it's still a hodgepodge and I haven't completed testing/debugging. Pre-pre-preliminary shows similar to Simcraft - DP is in the lead by a couple thousand.

One thing I have found that is interesting is that it is showing a DPS loss to use 3HP TV as last in priority. A loss on the order of about 10% total DPS. It is better to only use TV when you are at 5 HP and need to dump. I modeled this as a choice, and turning it off wins by a large margin. I even made it somewhat smart where it would only use a 3HP TV if your other abilities still had at least 0.2 left on their cooldowns. Trying to fill 'empty' GCD winds up a net loss. As I tighten up the spreadsheet and ensure there aren't big bugs anywhere I may try tweaking to use only if other abilities CDs are greater (.3-full GCD). This is all assuming I don't have an issue somewhere, which is not necessarily a safe assumption.

For those who prefer Excel over an executable, or just like 2 independent sources of data, I hope to have a version up by patch day. I don't know about other folks, but I like 2 different tools - when they agree it makes you more confident in the results of both. It's hard to tell if there's a lurking issue or incorrect coding/data if only one is available.

Theck · 08/22/12, 8:55 AM

Originally Posted by aylen86

The other thing you've observed is important to note:
Currently Glyph of Harsh Words and Glyph of Word of Glory don't interact with eachother. You can either spend your holy power to heal yourself and get the "Glyph of Word of Glory"-damage buff or attack the target directly and get no buff.

That's a stealth nerf then. The two were definitely interacting a few builds ago. My guess is that they decided to nip this in the bud and haven't gotten around to fixing the tooltip.

I agree with Exemplar though, it's probably for the best. Neither spec needs another short-duration maintenance spell.

That change pretty much axes GoWoG for prot. Unfortunately Harsh Words is still a straight-up DPS increase for us because WoG does more damage than SotR does.

Balhale · 08/22/12, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Unrelated topic - I'm warming up my spreadsheet for next week as a 5.0.x L85 version (present gear, no use of 6th Talent). I don't have all the L85 spell base values, so it's still a hodgepodge and I haven't completed testing/debugging. Pre-pre-preliminary shows similar to Simcraft - DP is in the lead by a couple thousand.

One thing I have found that is interesting is that it is showing a DPS loss to use 3HP TV as last in priority. A loss on the order of about 10% total DPS. It is better to only use TV when you are at 5 HP and need to dump. I modeled this as a choice, and turning it off wins by a large margin. I even made it somewhat smart where it would only use a 3HP TV if your other abilities still had at least 0.2 left on their cooldowns. Trying to fill 'empty' GCD winds up a net loss. As I tighten up the spreadsheet and ensure there aren't big bugs anywhere I may try tweaking to use only if other abilities CDs are greater (.3-full GCD). This is all assuming I don't have an issue somewhere, which is not necessarily a safe assumption.

For those who prefer Excel over an executable, or just like 2 independent sources of data, I hope to have a version up by patch day. I don't know about other folks, but I like 2 different tools - when they agree it makes you more confident in the results of both. It's hard to tell if there's a lurking issue or incorrect coding/data if only one is available.

For non optimized 85 BiS gear SimC is showing a dps loss not to have the 3HP TV last in priority. Loss of about 2%. I'm showing DP > HA > SW. 1k dps difference between each. Also showing a drop from live sims by about 3k.

I totally agree about the independent sources of data thing - there have been several bugs that were hard to find with no other tool to compare too and I know that hunter development has been helped quite a bit by comparing FemaleDwarf and SimC.

Exemplar · 08/22/12, 5:01 PM

Originally Posted by Balhale

For non optimized 85 BiS gear SimC is showing a dps loss not to have the 3HP TV last in priority. Loss of about 2%. I'm showing DP > HA > SW. 1k dps difference between each. Also showing a drop from live sims by about 3k.

Hmmm. Still tweaking, and these are still pre-pre-preliminary numbers, but this hasn't changed for me. In a 10 minute fight, DP, L85 (so no T6 talent), and no TV at 3 HP I get a whopping 1 free GCD (plenty of partial GCD, but only one entire contiguous free one). I can only imagine how it looks once you can add the T6 talent into the mix.

I'm also seeing 5.0.4 as a loss of about 7% total DPS compared to live. Very much hope this is due to modeling flaws that I'll get fixed.

It's entirely possible our difference is gearing based. We're at the end of L85 in relatively high end gear... and I reforged for Haste over Crit. That last may be the kicker that is causing my numbers to disagree with Simcraft. I also haven't fixed the reforging on the gear presently loaded to Exp cap. It's sitting below cap due to GoSoT loss. Fixing the gear to plug that hole may also impact how damage occurs.

I'm getting DP > SW > HA, each with a 2k drop. It's entirely possible I need to retune my setup. I've got my HA waiting for you to have 2 or less HP to ensure no wastage, unless it matches with an AW. This loses you a few seconds here and there, but at least in my 10min timeframe it isn't losing an entire cast and it still matches with AW where it can. I have AW looking for 5 HP (so you can maximize the TV under the effect) and looking to avoid a mid-CD refresh of Inq if it can (but not so much it will delay huge stretches).

It's possible the 'looking to proc at high HP' rule is devaluing 3HP TV, but the fact I'm so bloody GCD-locked makes that unlikely. I think it's a loss because other abilities had less-than-a-GCD remaining on CD, so they get fractional delays from the 3HP TVs.

On the plus side, Inq uptime is phenomenal. I'm only missing it for the first GCD when you build a HP. After that you reliably refresh between 0.4 and 2 remaining on it. The greater HP income and the 2 sec roll are both nice additions.

Anyhow, still tweaking and plugging away.

Balhale · 08/22/12, 6:36 PM

Absolutely I need to check reforging and regem/enchant/reforge the 85 profile and that could certainly make a difference. I also have HA waiting for 2 or less HP for no wastage. Without the t14 set bonus cd usage for HA should be: 0:00 GoAK 0:10 AW 0:12 HA 2:12ish HA 3:10ish AW 4:12ish HA 6:00ish GoAK 6:10 AW 6:12ish HA, etc. I haven't messed with HP conditionals on AW much yet or with inquisition timers - I'll look into that as well.

Do you have the GCD reduction of the fillers implemented? That could account for the discrepancy as well - the only profile I get totally 100% GCD locked in is a haste reforged level 90 divine purpose/holy prism build. The 85 profiles right now have about 7-8% wait time. Also I'm using 450 second fights +/- 20% instead of 10 minutes so that might explain the difference as well.

Agree that inquisition uptime is phenomenal. MoP ret is definitely much smoother to play than Cata ret, especially pre t13 2pc.

Edit: Are you using human or a neutral dps race like blood elf or tauren?

anaxes · 08/22/12, 7:06 PM

Balhale are you using Spellpower % buff provided in raids to modify our damage in your Sims?

May I remind you:

Gain SP equal to 50% of AP. Cannot gain SP from other sources (Int, enchants, etc).

Balhale · 08/22/12, 7:23 PM

Originally Posted by anaxes

Balhale are you using Spellpower % buff provided in raids to modify our damage in your Sims?

May I remind you:

I am not. SP in the SimC sims is exactly 50% of AP.

At 85 it appears a haste > mastery > crit priority generates the most dps.

Balhale · 08/22/12, 11:07 PM

Apparently SimC had a major bug in the implementation of divine purpose. Basically, we have it coded to make the abilities free, but it was doing that, then adding 3 holy power, which I presume was added for reporting purposes. Net effect was it being worth between 3 and 6 holy power. This was also the source of the weird overflow in the resource section regarding divine purpose.

Fixing that is a 5k dps loss for DP profiles.

Ronark · 08/23/12, 1:22 AM

Originally Posted by Balhale

Apparently SimC had a major bug in the implementation of divine purpose. Basically, we have it coded to make the abilities free, but it was doing that, then adding 3 holy power, which I presume was added for reporting purposes. Net effect was it being worth between 3 and 6 holy power. This was also the source of the weird overflow in the resource section regarding divine purpose.

Fixing that is a 5k dps loss for DP profiles.

To clarify, is this a DPS loss of 5k for all profiles which included DP only, i.e. a 5k DPS loss for DP placing it behind HA/SW? The numbers form Exep's .exl and SimC seemed more in line prior to the discovery of this bug. What dolls are being used for SimC? Purely Unforged/enchanted BiS gear?