[Ret 5.0 Pre-MoP] - Panda-ring to all players - Page 2

Exemplar · 04/11/12, 8:23 AM

Updated the OP with some information from MMO-Champion datamining:
Glyph of Double Jeopardy
Glyph of Mass Exorcism
Leatherworking Str leg kit
Updated values for Eternal Flame, Sacred Shield, Holy Prism, Light's Hammer.

Note that the talent tooltips all seem to reference SP coefficients. I'm presently theorizing they say SP but will actually use greater of AP or SP. Then again, they may just not have the tooltips loaded with all the information yet (entirely possible!).

Ronark · 04/12/12, 1:16 AM

After looking at the gems in the database, it seems that Secondary stats (Haste, Mastery, Stamina, Dodge, Spirit, etc) have 50% more "points" than Primary stats (Strength, Agility, and Intellect).

Compare the Bold Serpent's Eye (which is +320 Strength) to the Fractured Serpent's Eye (of +480 Mastery Rating). Add in the fact that the Enchanter Ring enchants are giving 160 Primary stats, we should except to see a Bold Rare MoP gem give 160 Strength and a Fractured Rare MoP gem give 240 Mastery, etc.

tukchen · 04/19/12, 1:05 PM

From my testing on the beta, HotR requires a minimum of 5 targets to produce more dps than crusader strike.

Crusader Strike:
18449 + 9335 (Hand of Light)

HotR:
[1877 (Physical) + 1357 (Hand of Light)] + n * [5170 (wave)]

HotR only procs Hand of Light on the primary target. Divine Storm hits for 50% weapon damage as Holy damage and procs Hand of Light on all targets hit.

I can't remember exactly what blizzard are doing to melee weapons but I recall them stating that the weapon damage is going down but stats are going up. So perhaps with Mists gear HotR will hit harder than Crusader Strike for ~3 targets.

Ronark · 04/24/12, 11:30 PM

From the new Beta build information on MMO-C (build 15640), it seems that every ability will scale from SP alone and not from AP (directly, anyways).

Additionally, Hammer of Wrath will no longer generate a charge of Holy Power, but to compensate HoW will benefit from Mastery. GAnK also had its cooldown reverted back to 5 minutes.

Phantoms · 04/25/12, 2:19 AM

Originally Posted by Ronark

From the new Beta build information on MMO-C (build 15640), it seems that every ability will scale from SP alone and not from AP (directly, anyways).

Additionally, Hammer of Wrath will no longer generate a charge of Holy Power, but to compensate HoW will benefit from Mastery. GAnK also had its cooldown reverted back to 5 minutes.

Assuming tooltip is bugged or something is fishy, but HoW still currently grants 1 charge of HP on use, and is useable during Avenging Wrath. (contrary to the tooltip change that was posted tonight.)

GoAK is a 5 minute CD though. That one went through.

Exemplar · 04/25/12, 8:48 AM

Originally Posted by Ronark

From the new Beta build information on MMO-C (build 15640), it seems that every ability will scale from SP alone and not from AP (directly, anyways).

It looks like things scale from one or the other, not exclusively SP (reference Exo).

I think this is just some (belated) cleanup in design. Ret Spellpower wasn't just AP/2 due to all-stats enchants and raid buffs like Kings/MoW. Holy AP wasn't just their base value for the same reasons. It produces some (rather small) double-dipping. MoP would just exacerbate this as stat bonuses are seeing another big leap.

Instead of just assuming Holy have zero AP buffed and Ret have zero SP buffed (before AP->SP conversion), it looks like they're taking the simple route: Build a spell to function solely on one of the two values (SP or AP, never both). They can then always know that Ret SP = AP/2 and Holy AP = baseline. I'd suspect that makes intended damage easier to balance. Produces a minor reduction in chance of wild buff/nerf cycles, and probably makes Holy soloing (especially leveling) easier to set precisely where they desire.

Regarding HoW - it looks like the intent is to remove HP from it. I'm thinking either it's still intended for use under AW (or Sanctified Wrath is pointless above 20%?!?), or SW is to be updated (hope so, I've constantly worried about SW's PvP impact). It may be designed as a non-RNG-based, under-20%, rotation changer. Produce enough damage to be desirable even before (some? all?) HP generators and you'd want to work it into your priority, but you couldn't use it all fight long. If that's the goal, I like the idea since it would alter priority on the fly (at 20%) without being the RNG rollercoaster or procs. However, in order for this to work the total damage done must average more than at least some of our HP generators (+1/3 of the TV they then don't produce). That always has PvP spike implications, especially in a sub-20% scenario.

Jortong · 04/25/12, 8:56 AM

They added HoW to all specs. For prot and holy: Hammer of Wrath No longer generates a charge of Holy Power.
Ret still get HP and can use under AW

Charybdis · 04/25/12, 9:06 AM

Tier set bonuses are up on MMO-C:

Item - Paladin T14 Retribution 2P Bonus - New: Increases the damage done by your Templar's Verdict ability by 15%.
Item - Paladin T14 Retribution 4P Bonus - New: Reduces the cooldown of your Avenging Wrath ability by 85 sec.

Adding on to TV is nothing new, but it's certainly effective.

The 4p seems like a typo to be honest. 85 seconds instead of 60 off a 180 second CD seems really odd, but I'm certainly not going to complain about a further shortened CD. We might keep it on CD, but it might prove better to wait and have Execution Sentence or Light's Hammer during that time.

Now that I think of it, 95 seconds might work out if used on CD so we can get GAnk during the same time too. 3*95=285, which is 15 seconds sooner than GAnK's 300 second CD.

As for the whole AP -> SP thing, I was wondering how soon Blizzard would take the Enhancement idea and give it to Ret. It makes things simpler on both ends, that's for sure.

I am curious about Seal of truth being based solely on SP now. Is it to let Holy use it? Seems a bit odd, but if Denounce, Holy Shock, or Judgment can stack it then there might be some interesting things Holy can do now. Or of course Holy can be at least somewhat effective in melee like all paladins should.

Ronark · 04/25/12, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

It looks like things scale from one or the other, not exclusively SP (reference Exo).

Correct, every baseline ability will scale from SP directly, and spec specific abilities (Exorcism, probably Shield of the Righteous) will scale from AP as Holy can never use those abilities. Under this model, if the Damage on an ability is too low they can just adjust the SP coefficent instead of SP and AP.

Also, it appears that Devotion Aura is now a Class Skill.

Exemplar · 04/25/12, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by Charybdis

I am curious about Seal of truth being based solely on SP now. Is it to let Holy use it?

Initial assumption would be: one knob to tune (just SP instead of SP and AP) and Holy would use for solo DPS (i.e. leveling) purposes. SoI would continue to be used for healing/raiding, since it gives a healing bonus but no bonus damage. The SP coefficient would likely be tuned for effective Ret use (AP/2->SP), which indirectly means Holy would simply get much beefier SoT. Quality of life improvement for Holy leveling/grinding/dailies.

Thanks, Jortong. That causes HoW to make much more sense and requires no SW rework. I continue to ponder the PvP implications.

Handled · 04/25/12, 8:01 PM

I did some checking on the gems and while I'm sure you would have changed this at some point.

Reverberating Primal Diamond
+216 Strength and 3% Increased Critical Effect
Item Level 90

aylen86 · 04/27/12, 6:05 AM

New build: Small buffs to Divine Storm (weapon damage +10%, now 6% healing with glyph) and Glyph of Exorcism is most likely a no-brainer now:

Glyph of Hammer of Wrath is now Glyph of Exorcism and now affects Exorcism.
(-10% damage for 10 secs after Exo)

I guess the HoW change is only a shift from AP to spellpower and damage values stay relatively equal.

Teleros · 04/27/12, 5:49 PM

It's a slight buff to HoW I think: 71% AP to 161% SP, unless we get that much more AP that doesn't convert to SP at least. I can't believe the Exo glyph will make it to Live (for long) though, 10% damage reduction for 2/3 of a fight (at least) seems a bit too powerful for an optional glyph.

Antigenic · 04/29/12, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Teleros

It's a slight buff to HoW I think: 71% AP to 161% SP, unless we get that much more AP that doesn't convert to SP at least.

If Sword of Light remains at 50% AP -> SP, then this is indeed a slight buff to HoW.

Previous: 14,000 AP x 0.71 = 9,940

Current: 14,000 AP x (0.5 SP / 1 AP) x 1.61 = 11,270

lîte · 05/01/12, 2:53 PM

Looks like Hammer of Wrath got another nerf to its base damage:

Hammer of Wrath base damage has been reduced by 60%.

Damage went from (4,454 + 161% SP) to (1,838 + 161% SP)