I also had a thought that Apparatus might be extremely good when proccing haste. Ran that through SimC as well, but it looks like it's adding both haste and crit, as per http://i.imgur.com/jsAIX.png

If it's working correctly, then it's a small dps increase over H Creche. If not, well then it's a loss.

Not sure what to tell you Grog. I'm currently enchanted with landslide, but I swapped back and forth to hurricane in simc multiple times without issue.

With Hurricane, what does that line look like for you? Maybe I can just copy it in manually.

Mine looks exactly like this:

main_hand=gurthalak_voice_of_the_deeps,id=78478,enchant=hurricane

We first wanted to update you with several tuning tweaks that we made recently that are not showing up correctly on your client tooltips (either beta or live). We wanted to document these so-called "stealth" buffs and nerfs to aid theorycrafting and avoid any confusion. We hope to get updated tooltips to the client soon (tm).


We reduced the damage of Divine Storm by 25%. Retribution Paladins were significantly too high on sustained AoE damage.


DS nerf !

That would explain the drop in DS damage from the last PTR build to live. I believe this would affect the number of targets required for the switch from TV to DS.

It's tricky. The short answer is: possibly, math it out. You're likely not gaining as much as you might hope, since you've now pushed that immediate Judge back by 3 seconds, delaying its CD and HP generation. So you gained some value (10k+) from the HoW instead of a Judge, will get the next HoW sooner, but are losing half (or more) of the next Judge due to delays.

It would probably be a few dozen to a few hundred DPS depending on how often it could occur. Trying to manually track this and implement only when you ought it's likely you would make the wrong decision as often as the right for no overall change or net loss, and tools like clcInfo just can't get to this level of detail unless they have spaghetti logic and a billion settings (which both author and users probably would dislike).

Rough guess would be upper limit of 0.5% to 1% total DPS increase. While I personally don't go for such high difficulty/low gain tweaks, I know there are top end players who live for such things. I recommend they crunch the numbers to make sure it is a gain, then go for it if they desire.

Issue with recursion. Hurricane looks fine on its own, but when you try to use it... it calculates procs based on # of qualifying attacks. Qualifying attacks is presently based on simulation. Simulation is based on Haste. Add Hurricane, Haste changes, Sim changes, Qualifiers change, Hurricane changes, Haste no longer matches what Sim used, crash and burn. Next release will have a hack workaround (flat value for Hurricane). The hack shows Hurricane a couple hundred DPS loss from Landslide. 1% or less difference between the two.

Don't forget, as Haste increases, so does Landslide uptime (since it can refresh/proc during a proc).

P.S. If the question between one enchant and the other is cost of mats - remember you can purchase most mats with Justice Points.

P.P.S. Even though 5.0.4 hit live, this thread will keep running until MoP. When MoP launches I'll start the new official Ret thread and we'll retire this one.

Run your current gear through SimCraft (or suffer hours in my spreadsheet, then don't believe the Haste value anyway...). No matter how many times it's said, people still don't seem to believe that stat weights are a very person-specific (read: gear specific) value. As your Secondary Stats change, the value for more of each changes.

I believe Mastery was a shade undervalued in my spreadsheet's last release. Did a quick and dirty run in current (not released) version and get:
Str: 2.78 DPS
Crit: 2.09
Mastery: 2.27
Haste: Unreliable

For the gear SimC and I are both using, I'll believe Haste > Mastery > Crit. This gear/reforging has 16.1% Crit, 15.1% Mastery, and 12.3% Haste. As you can see, it seems to want what it has the least.

Other gear, or less raid buffs, could change those values. An example is that historically losing the 5% Crit Buff from raids has greatly increased the value of Crit on gear (you have less, so you should want it more). Dropping that buff and doing the same quick'n'dirty left Crit the same (2.09), but Mastery dropped to 2.18 - the difference between them was far narrower.

I have an idea for a hack for generating my graph that will produce reasonably accurate results and hopefully be heaps faster. Hope to implement by next release, assuming it's as reasonably accurate as I think.

Just wanted to throw in a big thanks to everyone doing numbercrunching and coding in this thread, especially of course to Exemplar and Balhale. I never would have time and inclination (and probably skill ) to figure this out myself, so this gives me the opportunity to perform well and get the most out of my char without spending each and every free hour spanking dummies and torturing Excel.

Thanks a lot!

It's definitely worth noting that both SimC and the spreadsheet are giving almost identical values to Strength, Mastery, and Crit. Can't wait to see if the next spreadsheet release causes haste to match as well.

As for Hurricane/Landslide, it depends on both your gear and your talent choice. As I posted on the last page, it's a wash if you pick SW. I tried with DP, and Landslide came out ahead by about 1.5k dps. I'll run DP and HA with 25str/25haste gems shortly and post results here.

In the end, though, it doesn't really matter, since we'll only be at 85 for another month. This is largely just an exercise in theorycraft and debugging.

Mentioned hack does function. It won't be truly accurate with Haste, but it will give a far closer 'wrong' answer. What the hack is doing is pretending every attack will get FractionalHaste more attacks. So # of attacks divided by current haste multiplied by new haste value. This is not a strictly accurate measurement, but it should be reasonably close. Generating the graph took under 30 seconds with a reasonable Haste value, which is much better than 30+ minutes and a useless Haste value.

I came up with:
Str: 2.78 DPS
Haste: 3.15
Mastery: 2.27
Crit: 2.09

So Haste is a bit overvalued. It says stronger than Str, but I wouldn't go swapping to Haste gems over Str at 85 (90 may be a different matter). Sorry, Zephur, but the graph won't be as accurate as SimC until I have a better calc routine than the single-sim. Still it's reasonably close to SimC's values. The agreement between tools is always a good sign.

At 85 I'd generally recommend Str, Haste > Mastery > Crit, but specifically recommend checking your own gear.

Spreadsheet update should be out sometime today (today being defined relative to the US), since I may have more tweaks to apply.