[Ret 5.0 Pre-MoP] - Panda-ring to all players - Page 24

Balhale · 08/30/12, 4:21 PM

Originally Posted by Nythan

A question about SimC: Ive imported my char from the armory but when i look at the strength in Simc and the str listed in armory, i see 2 different values. From my latest armoy: Nythan @ Zangarmarsh - Game Guide - World of Warcraft
it says i have 6896 (172+6724) strength.

when imported to simc, the simulation page says i have 6404 (from gear) is there a reason for this discrepancy and im just missing it?

From gear doesn't include gems and enchants, as far as I can tell. Compare the unbuffed section to your armory strength. They ought to match.

Originally Posted by Exemplar

To clarify - this makes it now 101.25% weapon damage, right? The total value being 75% of the previous (135%), not 135% - 25% = 110%.

I believe so, yes.

Exemplar · 08/30/12, 4:40 PM

Presuming DS is 101.25% weapon, it is still ridiculously strong because it's Holy damage (no Armour Mitigation, a fact I only just now corrected in spreadsheet).

Single Target SoT, CS/TV: 44923 DPS
2 targets SoT, CS/DS: 45700
3 targets SoT, CS/DS: 52730
4 targets SoT, CS, HotR: 60205

Even nerfed, you could swap to DS on 2 targets. HotR on 4+. It took 8 targets for SoR to beat SoT (it would only take 6 targets if SoR can now crit). Censure is freakin' strong.

Updating OP with relative stat weights (Haste > Master > Crit), new DS value, and AOE breakpoints. Hopefully OP is roughly up to date - please PM if you spot a flaw, since I will copy/paste a significant portion for the MoP thread in a month.

Today's spreadsheet release: here

aylen86 · 08/30/12, 5:27 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

It took 8 targets for SoR to beat SoT (it would only take 6 targets if SoR can now crit). Censure is freakin' strong.

Well, SoR is able to crit:

Professor Hurt · 08/30/12, 6:44 PM

MoP build 16030:

Divine Storm
An area attack that consumes 3 charges of Holy Power to cause 100% (was 135%) weapon damage as Holy damage to all enemies within 8 yards.

Mastery: Hand of Light
Your Crusader Strike, Hammer of the Righteous, Hammer of Wrath, Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm deal 15.0% (was 17%) additional damage as Holy damage.

Cloudio · 08/30/12, 7:34 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Presuming DS is 101.25% weapon, it is still ridiculously strong because it's Holy damage (no Armour Mitigation, a fact I only just now corrected in spreadsheet).

Single Target SoT, CS/TV: 44923 DPS
2 targets SoT, CS/DS: 45700
3 targets SoT, CS/DS: 52730
4 targets SoT, CS, HotR: 60205

Even nerfed, you could swap to DS on 2 targets. HotR on 4+. It took 8 targets for SoR to beat SoT (it would only take 6 targets if SoR can now crit). Censure is freakin' strong.

Updating OP with relative stat weights (Haste > Master > Crit), new DS value, and AOE breakpoints. Hopefully OP is roughly up to date - please PM if you spot a flaw, since I will copy/paste a significant portion for the MoP thread in a month.

Today's spreadsheet release: here

I had a question that was postpone, would str > haste be main stats for a single target and str>mastery main stats for multi targets ? and would this affect your results ?

Balhale · 08/30/12, 8:46 PM

Someone please explain statistics to the people at MMO-C for me.

I wonder if that mastery nerf is actually to 15%. Because it wasn't 17% base, it was 16.8%.

averykey · 08/31/12, 12:18 AM

Can someone explain what our rotation would look like with

Seems on live server you can use both glyphs; harsh words and glyph of word of glory. They interact with each others so you can now cast wog on target and gain 3% damage inc buff per holy power for 6 seconds for a maximum of 3 hp's. Can we consider that in our rotation ? is it worth it ?

I saw someone mention it was a dps increase and I was wondering what our rotation would look like.

Exemplar · 08/31/12, 10:16 AM

MMO-Champ tends to work directly with what they datamine from tooltips, which often doesn't match what you find under the covers. Tooltips often do round values wildly like that.

Actually, the worst part of the Mastery nerf isn't publicized. It's not just the base that is dropping, it's the coefficient. We got 2.1% Holy Damage for every 1 Mastery. According to the MMO-champ tooltip (mouse over it) it's going from 210% to 185%. So our total L85 Mastery is going to drop by a significant value (since we're more or less at the cap of what we're going to get).

Thanks, Aylen, I'll update my spreadsheet so SoR can crit.

Averykey - it's already been stated by Blue they do not want this. The fact it works on live is clearly a bug and will be fixed.

Professor Hurt · 08/31/12, 5:16 PM

New blue post regarding the mastery "nerf":

"Ret mastery was not nerfed. It has been 15% for quite awhile. You're probably just seeing a tooltip correction."

cky71321 · 08/31/12, 5:33 PM

With no Inquisition, BoM, or even a Seal up, hitting the 85 dummy with a few Crusader Strikes resulted in the following:

Mastery on character panel is showing 37.8%
109,900 Crusader Strike
36,600 Hand of Light

33.33% actual damage - or a 12% drop, exactly what the new tooltip suggests. How did we completely overlook this?

Exemplar · 08/31/12, 7:55 PM

Odd. Last, Weds or Thurs I logged on to Beta. I captured the value from no Mastery as well as various levels of Mastery from the Character Pane. It 100% matched live. So they were apparently perfectly content copying a 'tooltip error' from Beta to production for the launch of 5.0.4? Not cool.

We'll update our tools, but that was clearly not a transparent change. It will devalue Mastery, since we get less per rating. There's the chance it could drop below Crit in value.

anaxes · 08/31/12, 8:02 PM

If it was a tooltip error I wonder where the notes went for it. Oh right more underhanded ret tricks.

Also Trinkets mined up are wrong live dungeon journal lists:

Vaults trinket at 1200haste 3600 str proc 20sec not 2500
the Darkmist Vortex is 7750 haste on proc as opposed to 5050.

Normal version around 3200str/ 6900 haste

I rounded values but you get the picture. Relic of Xuen is pretty bad compared to 3600 str 45 ICD 20 second duration.

Anaxie's Totally Awesome MoP Retribution T14 BiS list & Theorycraft - Page 3

the trinkets listed with tooltips and screenshot on live dungeon journal post #50

Balhale · 08/31/12, 9:29 PM

Updated my SimC profiles, fixed a bug with Hand of Light benefiting from spell dmg debuff when it shouldn't.

bromli · 09/01/12, 2:58 AM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

It's tricky. The short answer is: possibly, math it out. You're likely not gaining as much as you might hope, since you've now pushed that immediate Judge back by 3 seconds, delaying its CD and HP generation. So you gained some value (10k+) from the HoW instead of a Judge, will get the next HoW sooner, but are losing half (or more) of the next Judge due to delays.

i've been wondering about these situations for a while now. the base case is: you have 4HoPo, J is off cd, and CS is on cd but will be up in 1 GCD. delaying J will obviously cut your HoPo generation from J. however, casting J and using 5 HoPo TV will cut into your HoPo generation from CS. the issue is compounded when both CS and Exo will both be off CD in 1 GCD, or when one is off CD in 1 global and the other is off CD in 2 globals. you are then delaying 2 HoPo generators, both of which hit harder, and potentially losing AoW proc as well. sub-20%, it gets even worse. and none of this even factors in cooldowns or level 90 abilities. common sense says that if you can keep every GCD full without having to use J at all it's a gain.

i'm not really refuting the priority list here, but i do think the question is worth more than a "meh it's probably insignificant" reaction.

Lorayth · 09/01/12, 4:08 AM

Originally Posted by bromli

i've been wondering about these situations for a while now. the base case is: you have 4HoPo, J is off cd, and CS is on cd but will be up in 1 GCD. delaying J will obviously cut your HoPo generation from J. however, casting J and using 5 HoPo TV will cut into your HoPo generation from CS. the issue is compounded when both CS and Exo will both be off CD in 1 GCD, or when one is off CD in 1 global and the other is off CD in 2 globals. you are then delaying 2 HoPo generators, both of which hit harder, and potentially losing AoW proc as well. sub-20%, it gets even worse. and none of this even factors in cooldowns or level 90 abilities. common sense says that if you can keep every GCD full without having to use J at all it's a gain.

i'm not really refuting the priority list here, but i do think the question is worth more than a "meh it's probably insignificant" reaction.

You're not just losing J's HoPo generation for one cycle only; by delaying J and using TV prematurely so you can use CS and Exo, you have a J off of cd sitting there doing nothing. The name of the game is to generate as much HoPo through the ENTIRE fight, not during a 9-second window. In the scenario you spoke of above, if you follow the suggested rotation, you do J-TV-CS-Exo-J-TV-CS-Wait-J-CS-TV..., pushing both CS and Exo back 1 gcd, but able to use J twice without delay. Delaying gives you this: TV-CS-Exo-J-CS-TV-Wait-CS-J-Wait-CS-TV. By delaying J, you inefficiently managed J's cd, resulting in two waits instead one.

All of our abilities now generate HoPo; there is simply no reason to wait to use one in favor of a harder hitting ability, because the more you wait, the less HoPo you will end up having overall.