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Old 05/02/12, 10:38 AM   #31
Nythan
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Zangarmarsh
I was curious about how the 4pc bonus will help us pick our talents.
It seemed that the Zealotry talent was superior before much beta testing was done. But with the 4pc bonus bringing AW down, it seems we have a choice to make. We can either hold off the AW to line it up with Zealotry (2min CD from what i can see. unfortunately not in Beta), but that seems a DPS loss since the 4pc is supposed to give us more AW.
We could separate the AW and Zealotry after the first use(3 AWs would be 255s, 2 Zealotry's would be 240. So only a 15sec delay for the second Zealotry) which seems to be the best case.
OR, we could pick up the Sanctified Wrath talent, which would let us spam HoW. But with these nerf's to HoW (no HP, then the dmg nerf that just hit), would this be a DPS loss? My gut says yes(as we wouldnt be getting as many TV's) If it is a significant loss, then the talents choices arent really "interesting" as one is clearly superior.

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Old 05/02/12, 11:09 AM   #32
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
Ronark's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Nothing can be calculated this early in beta with DPS numbers; we can however, calculate the HP gains from SW, Holy Avenger, etc and relatively determine how much use each talent will be. Remember: Ret still has use of HoW under AW, as well as gaining Holy Power from HoW.

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Old 05/04/12, 1:11 PM   #33
Takamuri
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Lightbringer
Am I correct in assuming that as of right now the only uses for the 5 pool of holy power are:

1) Long duration fights: To provide even shorter Inquisition downtime: only use TV/DS at 5 so you are always a max of 1 HP away from refreshing Inq.

2) Short duration burst where you do not need to worry about refreshing Inq:
Say you have a 5 second window to do damage, or AOE:
5HP: TV -> CS -> TV
5HP: DS -> HOTR -> DS

Are there any other real uses?

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Old 05/04/12, 1:31 PM   #34
Grigorim
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Llane
Are there any other real uses?
Yes, every situation benefits from the 5 HP cap. There is no CD on TV. There are CDs on all our filler abilities. By maximizing HP-generating filler usage and only using TV at 5 HP (or when no HP-generating fillers are available for use), we use fillers more often (which are worth their raw damage plus 1/3 of a TV), thus maximizing HP generation and increasing the numbers of TVs used throughout a fight. It is not solely due to "shorter Inquisition downtime" on "long duration fights. On any boss fight, you will increase the number of TVs used by preferring fillers to TV unless you're 5-capped (or all fillers are on CD and you have 3-4 HP).

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Old 05/04/12, 2:44 PM   #35
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Additionally, we will get more damage in a shorter window frame for times when bosses are vulnerable for a short window, akin to Hagara. This also has PvP implications.

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Old 05/05/12, 3:09 PM   #36
Trademark
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Skullcrusher (EU)
As of the latest patch, exorcism cd is also reduced by sanctity of battle. Should help reduce the dps loss and smooth out the rotation in case AoW doesn't proc.

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Old 05/05/12, 11:10 PM   #37
Sha_
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Nemesis
Originally Posted by Nythan View Post
I was curious about how the 4pc bonus will help us pick our talents.
It seemed that the Zealotry talent was superior before much beta testing was done. But with the 4pc bonus bringing AW down, it seems we have a choice to make. We can either hold off the AW to line it up with Zealotry (2min CD from what i can see. unfortunately not in Beta), but that seems a DPS loss since the 4pc is supposed to give us more AW.
We could separate the AW and Zealotry after the first use(3 AWs would be 255s, 2 Zealotry's would be 240. So only a 15sec delay for the second Zealotry) which seems to be the best case.
OR, we could pick up the Sanctified Wrath talent, which would let us spam HoW. But with these nerf's to HoW (no HP, then the dmg nerf that just hit), would this be a DPS loss? My gut says yes(as we wouldnt be getting as many TV's) If it is a significant loss, then the talents choices arent really "interesting" as one is clearly superior.
If i'm not mistaken HoW still give HP to Ret paladins.

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Old 05/05/12, 11:53 PM   #38
lîte
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Sha_ View Post
If i'm not mistaken HoW still give HP to Ret paladins.
Correct. Currently Hammer of Wrath still gives a charge of holy power to ret only. It was only removed for prot and holy.

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Old 05/06/12, 12:42 AM   #39
Sha_
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Nemesis
Can you guys confirm if Sanctity of Battle still affects Hammer of the Righteous as Ret?

Read somewhere that it was removed

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Old 05/06/12, 6:43 AM   #40
Fordragon
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Stormrage (EU)
Originally Posted by Sha_ View Post
Can you guys confirm if Sanctity of Battle still affects Hammer of the Righteous as Ret?

Read somewhere that it was removed
It still does since it shares cd with CS.On beta my CS has the same cd as HotR.

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Old 05/07/12, 1:13 AM   #41
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Some clarifications on Sanctity of Battle:

Prot: CS, Judgement, HotR, Hammer of Wrath, Consecration, Holy Wrath
Ret: CS, Judgement, HotR, Hammer of Wrath, Exorcism
Holy:CS, Judgement, HotR, Hammer of Wrath

HoW grants Holy Power and is useable under AW by Ret only.

It also appears that all Seals cause a 1 sec GCD.

Additionally, it should be noted that with Glyph of the Ascetic Crusader, our entire Rotation becomes mana-free, excluding HotR and HoW. Not that mana is an issue anyways, but it allows you to use more Mana on Support abilities instead of needing to require a bit of mana (~6%) in order to DPS.

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Old 05/07/12, 9:18 AM   #42
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Ronark View Post
Some clarifications on Sanctity of Battle:

Ret: CS, Judgement, HotR, Hammer of Wrath, Exorcism
Tooltip was changed to remove HotR. Question being, was this a tooltip error (has it been added back?) or has implementation not caught up to the tooltip?

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 05/07/12, 9:58 AM   #43
Podima
Von Kaiser
 
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Draenei Paladin
 
Duskwood
This post from Ghostcrawler explains why the tooltip may not accurately reflect Ret's ability list:

Ret and the loss of Hammer of the Righteous - Forums - World of Warcraft

In short, it's a dynamic tooltip, which makes it difficult to datamine correctly. The post also implicitly seems to confirm that Ret currently still gets HotR under Sanctity, while Holy does not.

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Old 05/07/12, 12:15 PM   #44
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Correct, it acts just like GAnK, with the Holy tooltip being the "Class" tooltip.

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Old 05/10/12, 8:40 AM   #45
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Crusader's Zeal has been updated from (auto)attack speed to stacking Crit Buff. This is possibly an overall buff, as the Crit chance should impact all abilities, while the previous version only impacted autoattack (and thus procs based on it). However, if a buff it's a small one based on the following math.

Say an average hasted swingspeed of about 3.0 (which could be optimistic, as we're losing JotP 9% Haste). 20% chance to proc, so on average one proc per 5 swings. That's about a proc every 15 seconds. Duration of 9 seconds. Effective up-time of a single stack (3%) is 60%. So an average about 1.8% flat Crit bonus. It looks a lot more powerful in the tooltip than it would prove to be, as it's unlikely to stack. Changing it to proc on all attacks would make it more probable to be present and actually stack.

Personally don't like it. 20% RNG chance to get a buff that increases the RNG chance to do more damage. Double down on the RNG is a sucker's bet. Random proc that does not alter our "rotation" in any degree. Blizzard has generally in the past agreed that both 'Random is not fun'* and 'Passive is not fun'. Random passive is double not fun.

* Unless it can impact playstyle significantly, so that the randomness itself is the fun, such as rotation changing procs.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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