[Ret 5.0 Pre-MoP] - Panda-ring to all players - Page 31

Kaljurei · 09/17/12, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Krekko

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
-- As previously mentioned, Divine Purpose's proc chance is supposed to be reduced to 8.33% or 16.66% if you cast a finisher with 1 or 2 Holy Power. That was also incorrectly applying to casts of finishers with Divine Purpose active. For example, suppose you had 4 Holy Power, and cast Light of Dawn (dropping you to 1 Holy Power). That procs Divine Purpose. You then Light of Dawn again. Previously, it would see that you're at 1 Holy Power, and give that second cast only an 8.33% chance to proc Divine Purpose again. This fixes that, so that casts made with Divine Purpose have the full 25% chance to proc Divine Purpose again.

Has this change been incorporated into SimC yet? Or was it following the correct set of mechanics before? Does it make DP better than HA or SW?

Balhale · 09/17/12, 6:57 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Balhale - are you sure ES should be higher priority than generators? Delaying a short CD by a single GCD is a lot greater loss than delaying a minute CD by a single GCD. Example: losing 1/3 of a CS across an entire fight (and thus 1/9th of a TV), compared to losing 1/40th of ES. ES would need to hit 14 times harder than CS to be worth the loss (not counting the TV ripple) - I'm not seeing that's the case.

Every sim I've run thus far loses dps if I drop ES in priority. I think it's mostly because of how it lines up with things like on use trinkets, engineering gloves, and our cds when used on cd vs. getting moved out of those effects by delaying it.

@Kaljurei

SimC has always had DivPurp at 25% chance to proc. I should check and make sure it's being scaled down for 1 and 2 HP finishers, but fixing that (if necessary) would make it weaker, not stronger.

Exemplar · 09/18/12, 8:24 AM

Originally Posted by Balhale

Every sim I've run thus far loses dps if I drop ES in priority.

SimC has always had DivPurp at 25% chance to proc. I should check and make sure it's being scaled down for 1 and 2 HP finishers, but fixing that (if necessary) would make it weaker, not stronger.

If it's due to linking with CD, then set CD to delay that GCD or two. I haven't loaded all the MoP gear in my spreadsheet, yet, but preliminary is still showing ES last in line is the best (although some priorities with it higher aren't bad, they just aren't the best). It's rather Cata-esque in that if you choose a downright awful priority, I think you're still at about 90% of maximum. So it's still really hard to completely fail at Ret.

Other topic: DivPurp should be non-issue, even if the guts behind the scene don't calc 1 or 2 HP finishers properly. SimC should never have a reason to use a 1 or 2 HP finisher (or does it clutch Inq in desperation if the debuff drops?).

The DP glitches apparently were all to do with Holy spells, not Ret.

Balhale · 09/18/12, 11:09 AM

The thing is, it's not a delay of ES by a GCD or two to place it at last priority vs first. It's a delay of on average 15 seconds, which is huge. Enough that on average you lose 3 ES per fight by doing so along with weakening each individual ES, versus gaining 1 CS, 0.2 Exo, 1.5 HoW, 0.5 J, 1 TV. (Numbers from SW and ES in T14H BiS)

Exemplar · 09/18/12, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Balhale

The thing is, it's not a delay of ES by a GCD or two to place it at last priority vs first. It's a delay of on average 15 seconds, which is huge. Enough that on average you lose 3 ES per fight by doing so along with weakening each individual ES, versus gaining 1 CS, 0.2 Exo, 1.5 HoW, 0.5 J, 1 TV. (Numbers from SW and ES in T14H BiS)

Very strange. In my sim I rarely see a delay of 2 GCD, much less more. The longest time without using it is the start, a whopping 7.4 seconds before it is used. Moving it earlier at that time would mean before Inq (ouch!), and everywhere else causes more delays than benefits.

I really don't understand how it would have such a huge average delay, unless it's going after 3HP TV or skipping it for very long periods until CD come back. I mean under 20% you could have HoW, Exo, CS, TV, J, HoW, CS, TV, Exo... ES. That was a maximum of 9 and effectively worst case scenario. Unless you're chain proccing Exo or DP I just cannot see such a huge delay on average.

Balhale · 09/18/12, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Very strange. In my sim I rarely see a delay of 2 GCD, much less more. The longest time without using it is the start, a whopping 7.4 seconds before it is used. Moving it earlier at that time would mean before Inq (ouch!), and everywhere else causes more delays than benefits.

I really don't understand how it would have such a huge average delay, unless it's going after 3HP TV or skipping it for very long periods until CD come back. I mean under 20% you could have HoW, Exo, CS, TV, J, HoW, CS, TV, Exo... ES. That was a maximum of 9 and effectively worst case scenario. Unless you're chain proccing Exo or DP I just cannot see such a huge delay on average.

Um, I'll check, it may be under TV3 and that would explain it. However, it's still worth pointing out that with ES below all generators you will never use an ES under SancWrath or HA. During SancWrath you go HoW filler HoW filler HoW TV5 HoW filler HoW TV5 repeat. During HA it's filler TVHA repeat, with TVHA equal in priority to TV5.

Edit: Yeah, it was under TV3. Fixing that puts it at a 10 second delay on average. Because of what I said with SancWrath the first ES is delayed for 37 seconds. Next two go off reasonably close to one minute intervals. The next is delayed 8 seconds, then the last is one minute later. Once it hits execute range you are GCD locked not using TV3 so ES will never go off at that priority.

Your worst case should actually be HoW Exo CS J HoW TV CS J HoW TV CS Exo HoW TV CS J HoW TV etc.

Exemplar · 09/18/12, 1:02 PM

Originally Posted by Balhale

However, it's still worth pointing out that with ES below all generators you will never use an ES under SancWrath or HA.

Excellent point. It may need to be top priority within AW, just above TV3 otherwise. This would ensure usage during HA/SW, and if using DP the benefit of +20% ES should fairly balance delaying a short CD (and may be superior).

Try putting an 'If AW active', use ES behind Inq/TV5, and the normal ES before TV3? Compare that to your general ES top priority and see if it is an increase.

Balhale · 09/18/12, 1:16 PM

ES with AW/HA conditional is almost exactly the same as my general ES top priority. Like not out of statistical error difference.

Basically you make ES slightly stronger, but delay an execute range usage.

Cartavian · 09/19/12, 3:18 PM

I have questions regarding Light's Hammer.

With the value of ES in our priority in question at the moment, at what point would LH become more valuable? I assume of course there would need to be an encounter with multiple targets that can stay in the AoE for the duration of the spell to see its true value, but beyond that, is it known how many minimum targets there would need to be to pull ahead of not only ES but to put it higher in value above our HP generators?

I also noticed the spell ticks in 2s intervals but for a duration of 17 secs... does anyone know if LH ticks are affected by haste and if so are the extra tick breakpoints known?

Exemplar · 09/19/12, 5:01 PM

Originally Posted by Cartavian

I have questions regarding Light's Hammer.

If it's better than ES on a fight, priority would match with ES. I'm starting to incline towards Balhale's top on priority after some tightening of my spreadsheet, but I'm not yet absolutely 100% positive.

It does not appear to scale with haste, based on the logs Balhale linked way back here.

I don't have all L90 gear loaded yet in my spreadsheet, and numbers would be askew with L85 gear, thus no hard number from me at this time. Guesstimate is the standard AOE breakpoint of 3 to 4 targets. I suspect Balhale can, and will, provide a firmer number.

Realize you'd need that many targets on average. A fight with one add phase would need many more targets to make up for the loss on all the other casts used only on the boss.

averykey · 09/20/12, 6:28 AM

How can I find the stat priorities from simcraft? I have been reading it's best to reforge with amr or wr, and then run a sim, then input the stat weights that simcraft gives you into amr or wr.

I have the first part down but I am unsure on how to obtain the stat weights from simcraft, I have ran a sim and looked at all the graphs and I don't see anything about stat weights, can someone point me in the right direction? Thanks.

Agusta · 09/20/12, 8:10 AM

Originally Posted by averykey

How can I find the stat priorities from simcraft? [...] can someone point me in the right direction? Thanks.

I think you have to go into the options, on the "Scaling" tab and choose which stat to analyse.

averykey · 09/20/12, 8:15 AM

Originally Posted by Agusta

I think you have to go into the options, on the "Scaling" tab and choose which stat to analyse.

Thank you, worked

.

Exemplar · 09/20/12, 3:29 PM

L90 MoP Spreadsheet release: here.
Updated L85 spreadsheet for those who want it: here.

A lot of gear (mostly leveling/quest, I believe) has locations marked as unknown. Wowhead is behind the curve for once. Please PM if you find an issue with calculations or gear with incorrect values (I key it by hand).

Findings are as follows:
Dungeon Gear shows DP=HA (HA is 0.1% less) > SW (0.5% less).
T14 Gear shows SW > DP (2% less) > HA (1% less).

T14 leans towards SW because the 85 second AW reduction (more AW, all 10 seconds longer = good). Otherwise talent choice is pretty much up to preference.

Hit and Expertise cap in dungeon gear will require work, but by the end of the tier it's easy to overcap even reforging away from both stats.

Weights are similar between the gearsets.
Str > Haste > Crit/Mastery

Str is beating Haste by more than 2 to 1 in Dungeon gear, and a bit less than 2 to 1 in Heroic raid gear. Currently I would recommend straight Str in red sockets - the extra 50% secondary stats does not seem to pull ahead. Crit and Mastery flip-flop depending on gear and stats, they remain very close in value.

Some priorities can juice another couple hundred DPS (a whopping 0.5% to 1% gain), but ES > HoW > Exo > CS > J performs fine under all talent setups. Logically delaying ES shouldn't lose us much DPS, but dropping it lower than 2nd position does noticeably reduce DPS. Balhale was right (though I still don't agree on a valuation of 15 second delay average).

Unless I'm calculating Light's Hammer damage wrong, it appears to beat ES with 2 targets (Boss + 1). Drawbacks are immobility, click-to-place, and averages (you need to average 1 extra target who is hit by every tick - short lived adds or one add only once wouldn't be worth it). HP never seems worthwhile compared to LH/ES.

I tentatively plan thread re-launch on Sunday, at which time I'll ask this thread be closed.

Balhale · 09/20/12, 4:40 PM

Running a 2 target sim with LH vs. ES has ES very slightly ahead. 0.5% difference at T14H level, 0.8% difference in pre-raid gear. So if you can average 2 targets for all ticks of LH it's fairly safe to say you can go with either.

T14H BiS Stat Weights:

I will get pre raid ones done shortly - my profile is old and needs reforging.