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Old 07/05/12, 4:15 PM   #91
Spotnick
Von Kaiser
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Lightning's Blade
One thing I was surprised when I was leveling on the beta was that CS and HotR don't share CD (guess I didn't play protection enough this expansion to remember). While I won't complain about this because it was a pain for CS and DS in the current expansion, I noticed sometimes everything but HotR is on CD, and I am wondering if it's actually good practice to use it single target just to generate some holy power while everything else is on cooldown.

Also, what is the priority with Execution Sentence and TV? seems to me TV was doing more damage but I didn't check the whole "going down" damage part, I really need to analyse recount a bit more.

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Old 07/05/12, 4:47 PM   #92
Fordragon
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Stormrage (EU)
Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
One thing I was surprised when I was leveling on the beta was that CS and HotR don't share CD (guess I didn't play protection enough this expansion to remember). While I won't complain about this because it was a pain for CS and DS in the current expansion, I noticed sometimes everything but HotR is on CD, and I am wondering if it's actually good practice to use it single target just to generate some holy power while everything else is on cooldown.

Also, what is the priority with Execution Sentence and TV? seems to me TV was doing more damage but I didn't check the whole "going down" damage part, I really need to analyse recount a bit more.

Dont know on what beta you play but CS and HotR have always shared cd on beta and they still do.

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Old 07/07/12, 6:08 PM   #93
 Rodimus Prime
Disciple of Woody Hayes
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Stormreaver
Originally Posted by Fordragon View Post
Dont know on what beta you play but CS and HotR have always shared cd on beta and they still do.
Which is unfortunate, because IMO, they should be separated.

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Old 07/09/12, 1:36 AM   #94
Cloudio
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Arathor (EU)
hey

Since Exo has the longer CD and potential proc resets it could be advantageous to prioritize it so it doesn't get delayed (as often).
Exorcism casting time is '' instant '', am not sure if anyone noticed this . Ain't sure if this is a bug or not either .

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Old 07/09/12, 1:41 AM   #95
Fordragon
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Stormrage (EU)
Originally Posted by Cloudio View Post
Exorcism casting time is '' instant '', am not sure if anyone noticed this . Ain't sure if this is a bug or not either .

Exo has been instant in MoP beta since the beggining and its intended to stay that way,its not a bug.

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Old 07/09/12, 9:12 AM   #96
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Correct. Exo goes from Cata hard cast, no-CD, with AoW making instant to instant, long CD, with AoW resetting CD.

It prevents spam casting when out of melee range (minor loss), but guarantees availability at least every 15 seconds. If we avoid DivPurp (imminently possible) then AoW would be our only proc. Since we'll have some free GCD it shouldn't be annoying to try to fit into its appropriate priority slot when it comes available early.

On to some crunching of numbers: Glyph of Inquisition.

Inq provides 30% Holy Damage and 10% Crit chance for 30 seconds.
Add the glyph and it's 20% Holy Damage and 10% Crit chance for 60 seconds.

For napkin math I'm going to drop that pesky 10% Crit chance for the moment.

How bad does your Inq up-time have to be for the glyph to improve you?

Normal up-time. X is how often Inq is not running.
(1 - X) * 30% Holy

Glyph up-time.
(1 - (X/2) * 20% Holy

Wait, why X/2? Because if you fail to refresh 30sec Inq by large margins you will fail 60sec Inq by the same large margin half as often.

(1 - X) * .30 Holy = (1 - (X/2) * .20 Holy
.3 Holy - .3X Holy = .2 Holy - .1X Holy
.1 Holy = .2X Holy
.5 = X

Ouch, you would have needed an up-time of 50% or lower to gain from the Glyph (ignoring the Crit recently added to Inq). For reference, most folks in the 'need help' thread only dipped down to 85% up-time at the low end. Your 'average' Ret seems in the mid-90s (94-96), while high end is limited by fight start (earning initial HP to start Inq, so 98-99% up-time).

So, we're missing two more factors. 10% Crit bonus is not lost when using the glyph, and the longer duration permits us an extra TV in the GCD we'd otherwise use for Inq. These are hard to quantify using napkins, but it's hard to think they could push value beyond the 85% up-time mark.

Bottom Line: even if you are a serial offender with Inq up-time, you're probably better off investing in a mod to help keep it running (priority control, flashing icon mid-screen, countdown bar, etc) rather than running the Glyph. Even the 'low end' Ret is unlikely to gain any benefit from the Glyph. Modeling like Simcraft or a spreadsheet can provide precise numbers at a later time.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 07/09/12, 10:32 AM   #97
Podima
Von Kaiser
 
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Draenei Paladin
 
Duskwood
It seems strange that thusfar two of the new MOP glyphs (Inq/Immediate Truth) are almost always straight DPS losses except in potentially very very specific niche situations. I would question whether this is Blizzard's intent (why?) or if they simply haven't realized how the math works out to this degree. Is anyone posting this feedback in the appropriate beta thread?

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Old 07/09/12, 4:57 PM   #98
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
One (Inq) is semi-intentional, the other (Immediate Truth) appears to be an oversight.

Inq Glyph is intended to be a loss to majority of playerbase, but it 'makes the game easier' to those who complain about Inq. Blizzard's commented on the Glyph and its role. Some portion of the players will embrace the Glyph, even if they knew that math said it would be a direct DPS loss for them specifically. Not every player cares about min-max. I don't think they necessarily need to tweak any of the stats of this Glyph, even knowing it would be a loss for 90%+ of the Ret playerbase.

Immediate Truth just seems to be an oversight - if it still took 10-15 seconds to stack Censure then it would take longer for ticks to equal the immediate damage boost. Fortunately for normal gameplay (and unfortunately for the Glyph), Censure should stack quite quickly. This moved the tipping point way earlier than one would expect/hope. It's entirely possible for them to tweak numbers until release, or even tweak things back to the dark ages of only autoattack stacking Censure (please, no, I like the idea of fast ramp and more viability of target swap!).

No, what strikes me as strange are Holy Prism and Light's Hammer.

We have two AOE talents on the same tier that function incredibly similarly (damage to foes, healing to friends)? No matter how many numbers tweaks they run, I really can't see how they can be tightly competitive, yet different, with current design. One will win, one will lose, or they'll be so similar as to be indistinguishable. Chain/hop, split, linear, conic are all different from AOE (and could make for some cool mechanics and tactical decisions like where to stand). Target-ticking (mobile) vs ground-ticking (immobile) would even distinguish, but HP is instant on target, thus effectively immobile as only time-of-cast matters.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 07/09/12, 8:07 PM   #99
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
I think you are forgetting that Holy Prism has a target cap, while Light's Hammer does not, and that is how they are "different"- even taking this into account, one will almost always be better on fight X than the other.

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Old 07/10/12, 1:40 AM   #100
Cloudio
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Arathor (EU)
Would stacking haste compensate the loss in censure damage ( in case of using GuIT ) ? if yes then will we have two haste cap numbers ?

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Old 07/10/12, 8:56 AM   #101
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Cloudio View Post
Would stacking haste compensate the loss in censure damage ( in case of using GuIT ) ? if yes then will we have two haste cap numbers ?
Well, since Censure ticks every 3 seconds and a 2H weapon should be in the 3.4-3.8 weaponspeed range, then yes, Haste would increase weaponspeed faster than Censure ticks. At high levels of Haste it could be possible to move the balance point to a full 6 or 7 seconds! Why would we have two haste caps? The haste cap will be whatever pushes us to GCD lock under Sanctity of Battle, since everything short of talent abilities grants us HP. I expect this to be an impossibly high value (barring gimmicks, reference Sinestra).

I don't think the Glyph really salvageable. If they increase the proc damage then they risk hitting the PvP wall of too much burst.

Holy Prism vs Light's Hammer
One's also instant-target via select ground location (unless LH drops at your feet like Cons, it doesn't say in tooltip but I've been working under assumption of select-ground-target style spell, which frankly is just an added annoyance). Target cap vs no target cap, select-target vs select-ground, costs mana vs free, 20 sec vs 1 min - none of them change the fact that they're both AOE that damage the enemy and heal allies. Blizzard vs Flamestrike has the extra mechanic of slow to differentiate, but even so one is historically superior to the other barring some gimmick fight.

One of the two will do more damage in every scenario except possibly for some gimmick fight involving high boss movement. Hell, for a healer it will be similarly definitive of one doing superior AOE healing. Tanks don't even get a fun tool related to their spec in that tier.

Just look at the DK, Rogue, and Warrior end talents - all vastly different from one another (although DPS DK seem a bit shafted, at least DK tanks get some end tier love). I won't even go into the awesome every single Druid talent seems to carry (talk about every spec wanting everything).

If talents are supposed to be everything for everyone (again reference Druid), then it feels incredibly lame to have 2 options so very similar and easy to math. I just feel really bad for lame duck abilities. Remember, folks have to put hours/days of their lives into designing, coding, testing, and validating abilities. If they're going to put in that effort, I'd hope it gets at least as many hours/days of use from consumers.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 07/10/12, 10:28 AM   #102
Cloudio
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Arathor (EU)
I will rephrase my question; correct me if am wrong ,

The more haste we get , the less censure up time we will have ==> increase damage of censure per second . So I.E my censure deals 2000 holy damage over 13.78 seconds on 8.85% haste ===> my censure ticks for 2000/13.78 damage per second .

Now if i stack more haste; I.E haste increase to 9.32%==> uptime will be reduced to 13.72 ===> Censure ticks for 2000/13.72 Damage per second . So more haste ==> more censure damage per second .

my question is , If using Glyph of Immediate Truth will reduce my censure damage by 50% ==> this means in the previous example the censure will deal 1000 holy damage over 13.78 , Then is there a haste point where i can reduce the up time of censure by 50% aswell so i will get the same damage outcome ( censure damage /2 ) / ( overall time / 2 ) ? On my basic calculations , it seems it's impossible as i would need 85% haste to achieve that .

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Old 07/10/12, 5:04 PM   #103
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
I believe you misunderstand up time. Each autoattack refreshes Censure to full duration. Thus if you stay in range of autoattack for 100% of a fight your Censure up time is 100%. Add Haste and it will tick faster, but remains 100% up time.

Haste will not ever change the equation. If you achieve 100% Haste and move Censure from 3 second ticks to 1.5 second ticks, unglyphed Censure will still do twice the damage of glyphed. Autoattack speed would increase, so you would proc the +20% faster, but it is never enough bonus damage to permanently surpass unglyphed. At the very best the Glyph version could take 7 or 8 seconds before un-Glyphed beat it in damage.

In present setup (+20% proc, -50% Censure), Glyph can only ever beat un-Glyphed for 3-5 GCD.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 07/10/12, 9:02 PM   #104
lîte
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Stormrage
If it has not already been stated here, by the looks of it it'll require 340 rating for 1% hit/expertise in order to cap. If I'm doing my math correctly that would equate to 2550 Hit rating (7.5% Hit) and 2550 Expertise rating (7.5% Exp) in order to have them capped for us.

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Old 07/10/12, 10:15 PM   #105
aylen86
Piston Honda
 
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Human Paladin
 
Malygos (EU)
This is true. For humans the new expertise cap with swords and maces is 2210 Expertise rating.

Furthermore our melee hit rating is converted 1:1 to spell hit rating. This is problematic because the spell hit cap is still 15.0%. In a 20 minutes test on the boss dummy my Exorcism missed twice with a melee and spell hit of 7.54%.

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