[Prot] 5.0 - I'm Sexy and I Know it - Page 13

BentBlyant · 02/05/13, 8:07 AM

Originally Posted by Finkum

In practice the change will be a much more significant HoPo generation rate nerf on many encounters, though.

Consider all the fights where
- you spend a non-trivial amount of time attacking, but not actively tanking, your target (e.g. Empress, any taunt-on-x-stacks fight)
- the boss does not melee at all (e.g. Garalon, Lei Shi)
- the boss does melee but spends some time casting specials (most fights these days).

Not a fan of this change, precisely because it won't play well with modern fight design.

You can't really fault Blizzard for nerfing holy power generation for tanks when they are not tanking. I personally love the change, as I always enjoyed avoidance back when it was slightly more useful, so I'm looking forward to seeing the results once 5.2 hits.

Theck · 02/05/13, 9:51 PM

It will be a slight nerf to single-target Holy Power generation while tanking (from the earlier quoted 0.0444/sec to around 0.040/sec, before munching combinatorics are considered). It will be a bigger loss while off-tanking, which isn't all that important for survivability, but might be for DPS. But DPS is easy to fix (CS and HotR already hit like wet noodles, plenty of room there for more DPS overhead).

The more important thing, in my mind, is that off-tanking will become even more boring than it is now without GC procs.

A neat idea would be to make Grand Crusader perform double duty. Keep the new version and a limited version of the old version. For example:

"Avoided attacks have a 30% chance of refreshing the cooldown on your next Avenger's Shield and causing it to generate a charge of Holy Power if used within 6 sec. In addition, your Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous hits have a 20% chance of proccing this effect when they damage an enemy that is not targeting you."

The HotR trigger would obviously be limited to the physical (single-target) part of HotR to not be OP. But this would give you the best of both worlds, in a sense. While off-tanking, you still have procs to pay attention to so that life is less dull. While tanking, that part turns off and you have avoidance triggers to focus on.

By the way, I've completed simulations with the new mechanics to see how the stats perform on smoothing metrics. I hope to have a blog post up sometime this week, probably Thursday or Friday depending on how much time I'll get to work on it (and double-check the results). Short version is that everything is much closer than expected, but control/mastery will likely unseat control/haste as the best mitigation strategy.

• promdates · 02/06/13, 11:31 PM

The Tier 14 to 15 stat differences, including current (2/6/13) ptr stats for T15.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...2c&usp=sharing

Nairobi the Kenyan · 02/07/13, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Theck

It will be a slight nerf to single-target Holy Power generation while tanking (from the earlier quoted 0.0444/sec to around 0.040/sec, before munching combinatorics are considered). It will be a bigger loss while off-tanking, which isn't all that important for survivability, but might be for DPS. But DPS is easy to fix (CS and HotR already hit like wet noodles, plenty of room there for more DPS overhead).

The more important thing, in my mind, is that off-tanking will become even more boring than it is now without GC procs.

A neat idea would be to make Grand Crusader perform double duty. Keep the new version and a limited version of the old version. For example:

"Avoided attacks have a 30% chance of refreshing the cooldown on your next Avenger's Shield and causing it to generate a charge of Holy Power if used within 6 sec. In addition, your Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous hits have a 20% chance of proccing this effect when they damage an enemy that is not targeting you."

The HotR trigger would obviously be limited to the physical (single-target) part of HotR to not be OP. But this would give you the best of both worlds, in a sense. While off-tanking, you still have procs to pay attention to so that life is less dull. While tanking, that part turns off and you have avoidance triggers to focus on.

By the way, I've completed simulations with the new mechanics to see how the stats perform on smoothing metrics. I hope to have a blog post up sometime this week, probably Thursday or Friday depending on how much time I'll get to work on it (and double-check the results). Short version is that everything is much closer than expected, but control/mastery will likely unseat control/haste as the best mitigation strategy.

Looks like you called it again (or Blizz has your posts/ideas on an RSS feed):

Originally Posted by 78100701327

Paladin
- We are going to try Grand Crusader proc'd by CS, HotR and dodge and parry (at lower chances for each).

With that said, do you think that the original part of your post (the bolded part, specifically) will still hold true on this? Obviously, without actual proc values, it's hard to say, but in theory would this not put haste back in front?

Theck · 02/07/13, 3:19 PM

Yeah, shifting some of that proc chance from avoidance back into CS/HotR will bring haste back up some. You can check my blog post from today for how things shook out with GC proccing only on avoidance.

Haste wasn't that far behind, so it's likely that a shift to say, 10% CS/HotR 20% avoidance would probably put haste back on top. I plan on updating the simulations soon (by this weekend at the latest), but we can only speculate until we know the real proc rates.

Wrathblood · 02/12/13, 11:39 PM

MMO-Champion is reporting that CS, HotR, Dodge and Parry can now all proc GC at 12% which is a nice way of keeping Paladin OTs from going entirely to sleep (and darn close to the recommendation Theck posted above) but depending on fight mechanics, this could be a slight nerf to HoPo generation or it might not.

Previously we had a 20% chance of procing GC every 3 GCDs with CS/HotR. If that's now 12% we need to be avoiding effects roughly 2/3 as often as we're using CS/HoTR, or approximately every 4-5 GCDs. With current gearing, most Prot Pallies will be roughly in the neighborhood of 20% avoidance against raid bosses, so in a Patchwerk-style fight the boss would need a ~1 second swing timer for us to break even.

However, figuring out the details would be ticklish as time when the boss isn't meleeing you would reduce your GC procs, but time spent tanking multiple bosses would increase your GC procs. Hmm, I wonder if there's a break-point in terms of number of tanking targets over which gearing for avoidance is optimal.

MMO-Champion - Patch 5.2 PTR - Build 16577, Blue Posts

BentBlyant · 02/13/13, 5:27 AM

I'm really looking forward to gearing more avoidance in 5.2. It's just going to be interesting to see the final math theorycrafting of what breakpoints and or balances that we can now attribute to parry and dodge. Hopefully that should make tanking gear more attractive to us, than simply using our retribution gear in tank spec.

On another note, I think Theck deserves another item or a quest or something, named in his honour, after providing so many good suggestions that Blizzard have obviously picked up

Trueblade · 02/14/13, 4:49 AM

As much as I have been trying to keep relevant and informed I seem to have fallen far behind again. When logging into WoW to day I saw the patch notes had been updated and read them all the way through. I originally came here to see what was being discussed about the changes to Eternal Flame and Consecration. (Does Doubling the heal of EF when self-Cast make it equal or better than SS?) (What are the numbers looking like with Consecrations base damage buff/scaling ratios nerf?)(I would check these both myself with simcraft, but truth be told I only just downloaded it and don't know how to work it. Besides I don't think my computer is capable of it.) However reading through the last three pages of posts everyone is talking about posts that I've not even heard of (and I experienced the same thing when reading through the Ret forums as well.) I don't expect a TLDR post (Though I'm sure some people might appreciate that.) But could someone let me in on where all this Non-ptr patch-notes information is coming from?

Wrathblood · 02/14/13, 8:34 AM

Mostly MMO-champion which is very thorough in data-mining, vacuuming up every bit of officially available information from every source, plus they occasionally come up with leaks and other un-official" official information, but occasionally other sources will cough up something useful as well.

As far as tracking how specific abilities are going and how they're changing on the PTR, for me that's the path to madness. It takes a lot of work to keep on top of all the changes plus figure out their implications, and if you happen to be one of the specs that's getting iterated a lot, you need an OCD-level of obsessiveness to stay current. A couple years ago when the Cata beta came out I obsessively tracked every change to prot pallies, but that was also at a point during which I had a ton of free time.

Because the problem, especially with a thread on EJ, then also becomes one of supplying people with bad information. If you write everything up and figure out the implications (such as Consecration being given a larger base but worse scaling, which was a good chunk of the reason why Prot Paladins arguably scaled better with Vengeance than any other tank. Prot Pallies do great damage relative to other tanks in 25H, but realtively poor damage relative to other tanks in 10N. Yes, even AoE. No, we can't burst like Monks but our sustained AoE dps is perfectly fine. This will help a bit with that) and then post it, you have to be on top of changes, both noting the changes as well as a change-log or you risk severely misleading people. Which is a risk anyway if *readers* aren't OCD about checking for changes ("GC only procs on avoids now, right? EJ just said so a couple days ago...").

So, at the end of the day, its just 1000 times easier to wait for the smoke to mostly clear (a stage we aren't quite to yet, but is in sight. Probably another two weeks, maybe a little less, assuming launch first week of March) and the changes to be sorted out. *THEN* we go through, tally up the changes and write about the implications.

In the meantime, if you have any thoughts on any of these changes, you're certainly welcome to voice them.

Ronark · 02/18/13, 12:31 AM

Haven't seen this mentioned in the main post, but the Shield of the Righteous buff acts like a DoT-- Except it doesn't refresh stats when the buff refreshes.

Using Jade Warlord Figure together with Holy Avenger, I was able to have the buff at a 7 sec duration (at its longest duration) for a 52% Damage reduction (22% Mastery). Even once the mastery gain from the proc expired and I returned to 16% Mastery, renewing Shield of the Righteous kept the mastery proc from the trinket until the buff's duration expired.

This makes it plausible to benefit from Shared Cooldown trinkets (using one puts the other on a 15 sec CD), but only in situations of extreme haste, or Holy Avenger/Extreme HP generation.

Gloryrider · 02/18/13, 10:27 AM

It doesn't exactly act like a dot, considering you add the duration of a new application on top of the remaining time of your previous buff(s) (instead of the normal 'refresh to max duration-behaviour).
I hadn't played around with the refreshing mechanic myself yet but it's very nice to know this and is a nice boost to HA+on-use mastery trinket!
When you activate HA along with the trinket, after the 15s buff expires you can have built up to 10-12 seconds of your shield buff (from my own experience), adding to that the 1-3 extra shield casts you can get in before this timeframe expires, we're looking at a more than doubled duration of your trinket 'buff' (on ShoR only of course)

EDIT: the extreme scenarios resulting in approx. 35+ seconds of uptime are probably only seen when HA is used during Bloodlust and with a haste-gear setup

Theck · 02/18/13, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Ronark

Haven't seen this mentioned in the main post, but the Shield of the Righteous buff acts like a DoT-- Except it doesn't refresh stats when the buff refreshes.

Using Jade Warlord Figure together with Holy Avenger, I was able to have the buff at a 7 sec duration (at its longest duration) for a 52% Damage reduction (22% Mastery). Even once the mastery gain from the proc expired and I returned to 16% Mastery, renewing Shield of the Righteous kept the mastery proc from the trinket until the buff's duration expired.

This makes it plausible to benefit from Shared Cooldown trinkets (using one puts the other on a 15 sec CD), but only in situations of extreme haste, or Holy Avenger/Extreme HP generation.

Do you have a parse of this, by any chance? Or is this just based on the tooltip? This is a test I've been requesting for some time now, but never got around to performing myself (Call to Arms thread, parse request #50).

I'm hesitant to trust the tooltip because tooltips frequently lie.

Ronark · 02/18/13, 11:25 PM

Here is our WoL, from just the Garalon attempts when I was tanking.

I can attempt to record the combatlog as requested in the Call to Arms, but no one is on currently to assist myself. Would a mob such as the Paleblade Flesheaters work (1 Handed attacks, 1.7 sec swing timer, 1 special that does Physical damage)?

Theck · 02/19/13, 5:03 PM

Originally Posted by Ronark

Here is our WoL, from just the Garalon attempts when I was tanking.

I can attempt to record the combatlog as requested in the Call to Arms, but no one is on currently to assist myself. Would a mob such as the Paleblade Flesheaters work (1 Handed attacks, 1.7 sec swing timer, 1 special that does Physical damage)?

The problem is that the variance in mob damage is generally large enough to muddy the waters. The weapons in the parse request have very narrow damage ranges, which makes the damage done very regular. With a world mob (or Garalon), it would be a bit of a statistical nightmare since the difference from the trinket is only a few percent.

Theck · 02/19/13, 6:10 PM

I found someone to give me a hand with the test as described: Maintankadin • View topic - A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Relevant section of combat log:

    [17:41:34.543] Agwyne hits Theck 681
    [17:41:35.214] Theck gains Jade Warlord Figurine from Theck
    [17:41:36.405] Agwyne hits Theck 682
    [17:41:38.210] Agwyne hits Theck 681
    [17:41:39.974] Agwyne hits Theck Absorb (681)
    [17:41:40.111] Theck gains Shield of the Righteous from Theck
    [17:41:41.778] Agwyne hits Theck Absorb (363)
    [17:41:43.577] Agwyne hits Theck Absorb (363)
    [17:41:45.373] Agwyne hits Theck Absorb (364)
    [17:41:47.064] Agwyne hits Theck Absorb (363)
    [17:41:48.934] Agwyne hits Theck Absorb (363)
    [17:41:50.320] Theck's Jade Warlord Figurine fades from Theck
    [17:41:50.682] Agwyne hits Theck Absorb (364)
    [17:41:52.412] Agwyne hits Theck Absorb (363)
    [17:41:54.313] Agwyne hits Theck Absorb (363)
    [17:41:56.040] Agwyne hits Theck Absorb (363)
    [17:41:57.883] Agwyne hits Theck Absorb (363)
    [17:41:59.665] Agwyne hits Theck Absorb (363)
    [17:42:01.466] Agwyne hits Theck Absorb (363)
    [17:42:03.244] Agwyne hits Theck Absorb (363)
    [17:42:05.037] Agwyne hits Theck 363
    [17:42:06.831] Agwyne hits Theck Absorb (363)
    [17:42:08.560] Agwyne hits Theck Absorb (364)
    [17:42:10.133] Theck's Shield of the Righteous fades from Theck
    [17:42:10.413] Agwyne hits Theck Absorb (681)

SotR kept the "extra" trinket mastery mitigation for the full duration of Holy Avenger. A similar test showed that the trinket did not increase the mitigation of SotR at all if it was used mid-HA sequence. Fairly clear evidence that SotR does not recalculate mitigation upon refresh.

Thus, pop mastery trinkets / etc. right before HA for an extra strong boost to the entire 20-30 seconds of SotR coverage.