[Prot] 5.0 - I'm Sexy and I Know it - Page 8

Gloryrider · 11/09/12, 8:04 PM

Originally Posted by Theck

In fact, the entire spreadsheet is more or less obsolete in that regard, insofar as we don't care much about TDR or dodge/parry balance anymore.

This. I played around with it a bit and came to that conclusion myself, which is of course completely logical and I slapped myself in the face for not realizing sooner. I'm very thankful to all of you for your quick and clear responses.

About the aspect of Colossus vs DS/RS:
Starting point is from a boss where there is absolutely 0 raid damage on tanks, but with a tank swap (ta'yak inbetween unseen strikes?)
Now imagine your enchant proccing 8 seconds before you have to taunt. In the case of DS and RS you effectively lose 8 seconds from your uptime, which is not the full proc but still a marginally large amount. Col. on the other hand will still be up at full strength (with 2s left) when you taunt, most possible getting fully absorbed on the first swing you take if you don't have several absorbs stacked on you (PW:S+SS+... combined with ShoR make for a very smooth transition ofcourse)

Then there's some advanced rotational ideas I had, you probably already noticed I'm not used to posting as neat as most of you veterans here, but I'll give it another shot.

← Click Here

I noticed retri doesn't use the standard "cs - filler - filler - cs" rotation anymore like we do, but has CS integrated in their priority system (which is, due to the very weak damage of CS compared to other HoPo-generators, all the way at the bottom).
I understand we still use the "old" standard rotation of fillers because our rotational abilities have a cooldown multiple of our GCD (pre-haste: 1.5s) and thus rarely coincide after the rotation was started. That we don't have random procs (for retri there is exo that can pop up at any point) also helps us maintain a very predictable rotation. The only proc we get (AS+) is one that always happens after a CS, and therefore doesn't feel as "random".

Anyway, in reality I seem to have several HoPo generators "clash" during a fight. Specifically Judgment and CS because of their short cooldowns, or Judgment and AS+ because I just happen to have "CS - J" lined up and the CS then procs my AS+. More about the first situation later.

The second situation (J and AS+ up at the same time) would normally be resolved as being J > AS(+) > CS. This is actually correct because of the nature of AS. There is no point in putting it in front of J as getting a non-procced AS off cooldown 1GCD quicker isn't going to help us much, it didn't proc. (and if it does proc within the 15s window, there is no need for us to worry about the remaining cooldown anymore). Putting AS in front of J at this point will only give us a slight gain in DPS and this only if there is both
a) no AS+ proc within the 15s timeframe
b) we can replace/delay a HW or Consec in favor of an AS when the cd runs out naturally.
However doing it pushes our J back 1.5s and thus possibly our HoPo generation. Not a good idea! I'm not even sure if J even does less damage than a non-proc AS because J generates 1/3 of a ShoR hit on top of the base damage.

I haven't managed to say anything useful yet as I'm aware you probably all know this. But now comes the 1st situation I brought up: When CS and J clash.
You might say "but they should never clash", but that's not true. I'm sure that during a boss fight all of us use more abilities than just the rotational ones. several examples are: switching seals, letting SS run out and having to refresh on a "bad" gcd (pushing a J, CS or AS+ back), using a Hand (of protection, freedom or salvation) mid-fight, timing your LH/HP/ES for maximum efficiency,... there are tons of examples.

I'm thinking that, in the case of J and CS clashing, putting J in front could be beneficial for our DPS and possibly HoPo generation. At least it's something that could be more thoroughly discussed. The only advantage CS has over J, is proccing free HoPo from AS, which makes modelling all this a little harder I suppose. I'm just not sure if that is really the reason we want to spam CS as much as we can, and if there might be room for a more complex rotation.
I'm already ranking on WoL often vs the other Paladin tanks, but I feel there is still a lot of room for improvement, and I wonder if I'm missing anything that makes me miss the boat on the top 20-40.

EDIT: spoiler tag, wall of useless text is useless

Meloree · 11/09/12, 8:21 PM

Originally Posted by Gloryrider

I'm thinking that, in the case of J and CS clashing, putting J in front could be beneficial for our DPS and possibly HoPo generation.

No. It's already been thoroughly discussed, and thoroughly modeled. The short answer is this: If you put J in front of CS, you will always be pushing back CS, giving it an effective 6 second cooldown. If you put CS in front of J, CS will have an effective cooldown of 4.5s, and J will have an effective cooldown of 6.5s. Especially given that CS generates 1.2 Holy Power per usage (GC procs), it should be very clear that CS>J generates significantly more Holy Power.

For DPS, it's not quite as clear by inspection, but Theck has modeled it - CS > J wins for DPS, too.

EDIT: Effective cooldown of J is clearly 6.5s, not 6.25. Whoops.

Gloryrider · 11/09/12, 8:37 PM

Thanks for the quick reply, it made me realize it's indeed (again) more obvious than I initially thought.

Originally Posted by Meloree

For DPS, it's not quite as clear by inspection, but Theck has modeled it - CS > J wins for DPS, too.

This is luckily less obvious and I sent you a small IM about it.

Theck · 11/09/12, 10:40 PM

This is something I considered pretty early on in beta, and included in the simulations. You can find the entire set of rotations modeled here, but for the purposes of this thread we only care about two:

7.50% hit, 7.50% exp, SoI
|    |                                          |    DPS |   SHPS |    DPS |   SHPS | SS/EF | Empty |        |
| Q# | Priority                                 | V=100k | V=100k |  V=50k |  V=50k |   Up% |  GCD% |  HPG/s |
|  4 | CS>J>AS>HW>Cons>SotR                     |  83289 |  16885 |  51232 |   9920 |   0.0 |   7.5 | 0.3948 |
|  5 | J>CS>AS>HW>Cons>SotR                     |  79748 |  15440 |  48930 |   9071 |   0.0 |  14.9 | 0.3517 |

As you can see, CS>J is noticably higher for both DPS and HPG.

damianbain · 11/10/12, 11:28 AM

This is my first post here, but i just wanted to throw this idea out there, you say in rotation that AS with grand crusader proc should replace anything but CS and J but in my eyes thats wrong, if we are looking for maximum hopo up time, wouldnt it make more sense to put ASGC at the top of the priority list. Think of it this way, if you get ASGC and hit it over CS or J thats two more chance directly after ASGC to proc it again, So more damage more hopo up time.
correct me if im wrong.

Theck · 11/10/12, 5:41 PM

No, it wouldn't make more sense to do that. Using AS immediately does get rid of the chance that you "waste" a proc, but it also pushes back the next CS or J (or both). Since the Grand Crusader proc rate is so low, you get better average HPG by using CS and J more rigidly and using Grand Crusader procs as fillers:

| 11 | AS+>CS>J>AS>HW>Cons>SotR                 |  83361 |  16852 |  51279 |   9900 |   0.0 |   7.5 | 0.3899 |
| 12 | CS>AS+>J>AS>HW>Cons>SotR                 |  83361 |  16852 |  51279 |   9900 |   0.0 |   7.5 | 0.3899 |

Gloryrider · 11/11/12, 8:16 AM

I had already brought up sacred shield ticks before, and after running it by Theck quickly we figured out our 30% (spell!) haste breakpoint is attainable and at around 5336 haste rating. This is assuming SoI and the spell haste raid buff active on you. This will give you a 2nd extra tick and thus 7 shields over casts lasting ~32 seconds.

Personally I'll probably keep stacking haste until this breakpoint and then favor mastery more. The massive amount of haste will have already increased the value of mastery by a large amount and, haste being affected by DR I think there's just a certain level where more haste becomes "meh" and I feel mastery will help me more.

On top of that, in later tiers more mastery will be needed, to reduce large hits (anything that works like ta'yak's overwhelming assault or other predictable large melee hits) which will be hitting for a ton more than that they are now.

Theck · 11/11/12, 9:38 PM

Originally Posted by Theck

I don't believe I've changed the file any, but when I went to open it in Excel I got the same error. Comparing the two, it seems the error is in cell F16, because it's hard-coded to a constant in the excel version, but works properly in the google docs version. I'll fool with it and see if I can't figure out what part of the formula Excel is taking issue with.

Had some time to look at this today. Turns out the excel ROUND() function wants 2 arguments, while the google docs version allows me to use 1 (defaulting the second to 0). Adding the second argument into the google docs version seems to fix the error when downloading and opening the spreadsheet in excel. I've applied this fix to the public version, so it should open properly in excel now.

mightymax474 · 11/15/12, 2:10 AM

So recently my guild lost our second main Tank so I have decided to start playing my protection paladin in our guild raids. I really like the play style of the spec. Anyway as a Human paladin I was wondering If the BIS would change because of my racial with the 1% exp increase from maces and swords

Balhale · 11/15/12, 3:01 AM

Don't see how that would change the BiS. Just wouldn't gem/reforge as much expertise.

Alundris · 11/18/12, 1:07 PM

I thought some peope might find this macro i wrote useful. I was having issue keeping up Sacred Shield, and decided I needed to do something about it (had about 45% uptime overall) and visual queues just weren't doing it. I already had a macro that was just.

#showtooltip
/cast Shield of the Righteous

that was bound to my thumb key on my mouse that I more or less just spam, I was trying to think of some way to add Sacred shield to it in a way that wouldn't just spam sacred shield, so i came up with the following

#showtooltip Shield of the Righteous
/castsequence [@player] reset=22/combat Holy Prism, Sacred Shield
/cast  Shield of the Righteous

this will probably work with our execution sentence as well, though I have not tried it yet, but because the CD on Prism is 20s, the sequence macro hangs on it, not casting shield until that 20 seconds is up, it also hangs any time I am using another ability via keyboard, and thus usually only sticks an SS or HP in when I have an open GCD.

I've only tested it in Heroics so far, but I'm not saying any difference in my DPS (and some improvement on AoE fights) but am seeing 100% up time on SS as well as better healing overall from using Prism on CD on myself.

Bladebreaker · 11/20/12, 7:15 PM

Although the itemization is poor in various ways (too many pieces with crit), I was intrigued by the 4-piece PvP set bonus in regards to tanking:

(4) Set: You gain a charge of Holy Power whenever you take direct damage. This effect cannot occur more than once every 8 seconds.

I would assume this translates to approximately 7.5 extra HoPo per minute. Since the mitigation value of haste comes primarily from the HoPo generation that it provides, what would this translate into roughly as Haste equivalence?

Theck · 11/21/12, 1:16 AM

Originally Posted by Bladebreaker

Although the itemization is poor in various ways (too many pieces with crit), I was intrigued by the 4-piece PvP set bonus in regards to tanking:

(4) Set: You gain a charge of Holy Power whenever you take direct damage. This effect cannot occur more than once every 8 seconds.

I would assume this translates to approximately 7.5 extra HoPo per minute. Since the mitigation value of haste comes primarily from the HoPo generation that it provides, what would this translate into roughly as Haste equivalence?

Roughly 30% haste. 7.5 HoPo per minute is 0.125 per second. Assuming you start at around 0.40 HP/sec from base rotation and GC procs, that would bring you up to 0.525 HP/sec. You'd need about 0.525/0.40=1.3125, or 31.25% haste (~13281 rating) to get the same effect.

pedal2000 · 12/06/12, 1:24 AM

So I just wanted to check this before I made any significant reforging/gemming changes to my gear. It seems like the general consensus (of the last few pages) is that Mastery=Haste in terms of general damage spike reduction, with Mastery having a slight edge when SoTR can be used to handle regular high points in damage. (Tank swaps etc)

Given that, in the normal tier of raiding fights (MSV/HoF), is haste just straight better? It seems that the advantage mastery provides is 'occasionally' useful whereas haste would provide constant much higher DPS? Is this the case? If so why is Haste not ranked above mastery? What am I missing here?

averykey · 12/10/12, 5:58 PM

Is hammer of the righteous better at 2+ targets, like it is for ret?