Elitist Jerks [Prot] 5.0 - I'm Sexy and I Know it

 12/11/12, 9:27 AM #121 Wrathblood Don Flamenco     Wrathblood Blood Elf Paladin   Drenden In the ballpark of being equal at 3, superior at 4 or more. Since we don't have Inquisition to buff HotR.
12/11/12, 10:42 AM   #122
Theck
Don Flamenco

Tichondrius
It's actually better at 2 targets at low vengeance, 3+ at high vengeance. From the ret thread:
link to Exemplar's calculation for Ret.
Several posts later:
 Originally Posted by Theck I did the same calculation for Protection several months ago - for us it's 2 targets at low Vengeance, but 3 targets at high Vengeance (>140k or so) because we have slightly different scaling. In practice, I think nobody bothers to switch back to CS at high Vengeance against two targets, though.
Apparently I never posted that math in this thread, probably because it was a quick-and-dirty calculation. So let's do a full proof:

Let
W= normalized weapon damage, also equal to W0+2.4*AP/14
B = CS base damage (633)
A = armor mitigation factor (0.679)
E = CoE modifier (1.05)
N = number of targets

CS damage:
CS = (B+W)*1.25*A

HotR damage:
H = 0.2*W*A + 0.35*W*E*N

Inequality such that HotR>CS:

(B+W)*1.25*A < 0.2*W*A + 0.35*W*E*N
1.25BA + 1.25WA < 0.2WA + 0.35WEN
1.25BA + 1.05WA < 0.35WEN

N > (1.25BA/0.35WE) + (1.05A/0.35E)

Plugging in B, A, E gives us
N > 1461.9/W+1.94

It's clear that as AP goes up, the right hand side will go down to an asymptotic value of 1.94. Finding solutions is a little easier if we solve for W:
(N-1.94) > 1461.9/W
W > 1461.9/(N-1.94)

Ignoring base weapon damage, W=2.4*AP/14, giving

AP > 8527.8/(N-1.94)

which if you plug in N=2 gives you AP>142k.

If we're more rigorous about it, we assume a weapon - say Ook's Hozen Slicer, with a base damage of 6335. Then

W0+2.4*AP/14 > 1461.9/(N-1.94)

AP > 8527.8/(N-1.94)-W0*14/2.4
AP > 8527.8/(N-1.94)-36954.2

And for N=2, that's
AP > 105k.

Note that higher-ilvl weapons will just push this value down further. Normal-mode Kilrak pushes it down to about 92k.

So for a rough rule of thumb, HotR does more damage if you have 2 targets and you have under 100k AP (note that you start with ~40k without Vengeance, so you only need about 60k Vengeance for the crossover point), and always does more damage if you have 3+ targets. As I said in the ret thread though, I doubt many of us switch back to CS against 2 targets, because the difference is pretty small and there are often threat considerations.

Last edited by Theck : 12/16/12 at 8:09 PM. Reason: fairly important typo: "over 100k" should've been "under 100k"

12/16/12, 2:39 AM   #123
Elvenbane
Glass Joe

Night Elf Priest

Vek'nilash
Originally Posted by Wrathblood

## [top]Gems

....

Meta
....
[Eternal Primal Diamond] - +324 Stamina and +1% shield block value
....

Rare

Single Stats
[Fractured Sun’s Radiance] - +240 Mastery (Counts as a Yellow gem)
...
These values are wrong. Should be:

[Eternal Primal Diamond] - +432 Dodge and +1% Shield Block Value
[Fractured Sun’s Radiance] - +320 Mastery

12/18/12, 10:50 AM   #124
Nairobi the Kenyan
Von Kaiser

Spirestone
In case anyone missed the bad news discovered in the ret thread:

 Originally Posted by Grognard At some point since Ronark posted his findings on Blizz's official forums, SoJ no longer hits multiple targets through HotR and neither does SoI. A very brief run against the two non-raid dummies at Shrine of Seven Stars consisting of 7 white hits and 6 uses of HotR (18 total HotR hits) yielded 13 SoJ hits.
Assuming this makes no change to choice of seal to use, but wanted to make sure everyone was aware.

 12/20/12, 2:32 AM #125 Capstone Piston Honda   Kirielle Human Paladin   Lightbringer Prot does not have SoJ. Is there any interest in compiling a list of talent builds and other paladin-specific tips for specific boss fights? My raiding time has been sharply curtailed this expansion and I'm afraid I'm a bit behind the eight-ball on this.
12/20/12, 9:06 AM   #126
Nairobi the Kenyan
Von Kaiser

Spirestone
 Originally Posted by Capstone Prot does not have SoJ. Is there any interest in compiling a list of talent builds and other paladin-specific tips for specific boss fights? My raiding time has been sharply curtailed this expansion and I'm afraid I'm a bit behind the eight-ball on this.
Don't believe anyone was arguing that prot had SoJ...the point of the post was to illustrate that SoI has been nerfed/bugfixed/whatever you'd like to call it to no longer proc multiple times on HotR/HotRNova. This means a reduction in self-heals of about 33% (depending on encounter, target number, and judicious use of HotR vs CS per playstyle).

As for your request; are you looking for ideal talents per encounter? What is your raid size/comp? Heroics or normals? There are a few useful write-ups on fansites like MMO-C that provide entry level information, if that is what you are asking about.

12/21/12, 6:17 PM   #127
durandal42
Glass Joe

Draenor
 Originally Posted by Charybdis There's no way perfect stat allocation on off set stuff can make up for the roughly 6000 mastery equivalent that is our 4p.
Where did this number come from?

I recently made my 4pc and discovered, to my dismay, that it applies a 1.1x multiplier to the ShoR DR%, not a flat +10%. In other words, if you're at 50% without your 4pc, you'll be at 55% with it, not 60%.

Also, the 4pc buffs mastery-affected defenses in different ways:
1) block chance - no effect; mastery equivalent = 0
2) ShoR DR% - 1.1x existing DR%; mastery equivalent scales with current mastery, roughly equivalent to 5-6% mastery in (typical?) gear.
3) WoG throughput - 10% larger WoGs; roughly equivalent to 2% mastery if you're WoGing at a full stack of BoG, or superior to any amount of mastery if you're WoGing with no stacks of BoG.

 12/22/12, 1:12 AM #128 Capstone Piston Honda   Kirielle Human Paladin   Lightbringer Interesting. I hadn't looked at the numbers since I got my 4pc. Curious whether Theck has done any work on how that affects haste vs mastery from a DR perspective. :> As far as the the encounter request, I think the DK forums have always done a fairly good job of identifying class-specific tips & tricks on a per-encounter basis. The DK tank forum has a (possibly overly fancy) list for the current tier. I think we've done it here in the past, and normally I'd be well versed in the nuances myself, but I find myself with much less time for both playing and research these days.
12/23/12, 12:37 PM   #129
Theck
Don Flamenco

Tichondrius
 Originally Posted by Capstone Interesting. I hadn't looked at the numbers since I got my 4pc. Curious whether Theck has done any work on how that affects haste vs mastery from a DR perspective. :>.
It doesn't. Mastery was already far ahead of haste in DR without 4-piece. What it might affect is smoothing (i.e. Control/Haste vs. Control/Mastery), however it's probably not a very significant effect since it doesn't increase block chance at all. It might be enough to push Control/Mastery slightly ahead of Control/Haste in raw spike prevention since they were already neck and neck, but most people choosing haste care about the extra DPS.

 12/23/12, 9:57 PM #130 Charybdis Don Flamenco   Trucé Blood Elf Paladin   Area 52 Blizz has made an update to Seal of Insight besides the whole HotR nerf: Patch 5.1 Hotfixes - December 21 - World of Warcraft "The self heal from Seal of Insight will trigger approximately 33% more often." Considering SoI was at 15 PPM before, it's possible they've made it 20 PPM. If so we can expect 3.0 weapons to always trigger a self-heal and 2.6 to trigger 86% of the time if my math is right.
12/24/12, 5:06 PM   #131
Theck
Don Flamenco

Tichondrius
 Originally Posted by Charybdis Blizz has made an update to Seal of Insight besides the whole HotR nerf: Patch 5.1 Hotfixes - December 21 - World of Warcraft "The self heal from Seal of Insight will trigger approximately 33% more often." Considering SoI was at 15 PPM before, it's possible they've made it 20 PPM. If so we can expect 3.0 weapons to always trigger a self-heal and 2.6 to trigger 86% of the time if my math is right.
It's about right. I took a very short (200 swing) data set this morning and got ~89% proc rate, within the 95% confidence interval of 20 PPM (86.67%).

 12/31/12, 9:09 AM #132 BentBlyant Glass Joe   BentBlyant Human Paladin   Saurfang (EU) I don't understand how to evaluate what trinkets to use. I have 2 fully upgraded DPS trinkets: The DMF (Relic of Xuen) which provides over 1000 static strenght and a hefty strenght buff Lei Shi's Final Orders: over 1000 static haste and a 3000 strenght buff. In my mind those would be the strongest trinkets. But the other I have access to are; 2x Brewfest Stamina Trinkets (1350 Sta, no procs or uses) 1x Brawler's Statue (900+ Dodge and Dodge Use) 1x Vial of Dragon's Blood (Static Mastery + Dodge Proc) 1x Iron Protector's Talisman (1250 sta and Dodge Proc) I've been reading a ton about stats and trinkets, and AskMrRobot bluntly goes ahead and suggests the 2 Brewfest stamina trinkets, but I feel so heavily gimped by that choice. Sure I don't mind having slightly lower DPS, but the evaluation seems very flawed. In my world having a 3300 dodge proc far outweighs say a difference of 100 stamina. Then there's the dps trinkets, I love the darkmoon faire one because it gives me almost 1k static parry and a proc to get 4k more, plus a whopping dps increase to boot. Lei Shi also has this strenght gain, but also provides me with a nice amount of haste to gain better uptimes on ShoTR and a further increase in DPS. Then there's also the dark horse Vial of Dragon's Blood, which seems good because I can reforge half the mastery to expertise which I sorely need, plus a hefty dodge proc. Admittedly I don't do any progress tanking, but I would love to make my tanking off spec as good as it can be. What do you guys suggest? Thanks Edit: Bentblyant @ Saurfang - Community - World of Warcraft do bear in mind that some of the pieces are part of my ret (main) spec, which means I cannot gem/reforge those particular pieces better. Last edited by BentBlyant : 12/31/12 at 9:18 AM.
 12/31/12, 9:29 AM #133 Nairobi the Kenyan Von Kaiser   Nairobi Human Paladin   Spirestone Suggestions can/will vary depending on the encounter, difficulty, and raid size. Personal DPS and HPS (mostly from haste, but also from STR) matter more in 10 than they will in 25. Conversely, stam matters more in 25, where the damage is higher. Personally, even as MT, I avoid most dodge-proc trinkets in this tier due to the frequency of tank swaps or other mechanics which could render the proc useless. In 25 HC content, I use the Shado-pan stam trinket and its doppelganger from MSV. The passive stam with 15 sec on-demand mastery on a 60 sec CD works best for nearly every encounter, for my comp/playstyle. You can chain these 2 trinkets back-to-back during an HA phase for a monumental cooldown (better mitigation and longer duration than GoAK). Or, you can macro them to DivProt/AD for easy, fire-n-forget mitigation throughout the fight. I'm hit/expertise capped though, and sitting well on haste, so that plays to the strengths of these trinkets as well. YMMV. One nice thing about repurposing DPS trinkets is that their proc bonus of STR or haste is not AS wasted as, say, a dodge proc if/when it occurs at a time that you are not tanking. Sure, with less vengeance your DPS will not see maximal gains, and you would lose out of ShotR/parry uptime, but it's still a notable increase in dps/hps. Given what you have/could get (and not knowing what you tank), I'd be inclined to suggest the Shado-pan stam trinket and use Lei Shin's (reforged to expertise if you still need) as a nice middle ground/starting point.
12/31/12, 10:09 AM   #134
BentBlyant
Glass Joe

Saurfang (EU)
 Originally Posted by Nairobi the Kenyan Suggestions can/will vary depending on the encounter, difficulty, and raid size. Personal DPS and HPS (mostly from haste, but also from STR) matter more in 10 than they will in 25. Conversely, stam matters more in 25, where the damage is higher. Personally, even as MT, I avoid most dodge-proc trinkets in this tier due to the frequency of tank swaps or other mechanics which could render the proc useless. In 25 HC content, I use the Shado-pan stam trinket and its doppelganger from MSV. The passive stam with 15 sec on-demand mastery on a 60 sec CD works best for nearly every encounter, for my comp/playstyle. You can chain these 2 trinkets back-to-back during an HA phase for a monumental cooldown (better mitigation and longer duration than GoAK). Or, you can macro them to DivProt/AD for easy, fire-n-forget mitigation throughout the fight. I'm hit/expertise capped though, and sitting well on haste, so that plays to the strengths of these trinkets as well. YMMV. One nice thing about repurposing DPS trinkets is that their proc bonus of STR or haste is not AS wasted as, say, a dodge proc if/when it occurs at a time that you are not tanking. Sure, with less vengeance your DPS will not see maximal gains, and you would lose out of ShotR/parry uptime, but it's still a notable increase in dps/hps. Given what you have/could get (and not knowing what you tank), I'd be inclined to suggest the Shado-pan stam trinket and use Lei Shin's (reforged to expertise if you still need) as a nice middle ground/starting point.
Hey,

Thanks for your input! I'm well aware that the trinkets change in viability, depending on many factors. I guess I wasn't describing my situation very clearly.

I'm a ret pally who occasionally offtanks. We are not particularly keen raiders, so our current progress is just normal Elegon and normal Vizier. Would this lower level of raiding, mean that the favour swings a bit to the dps trinkets over the stamina ones?

Re: your advice, sadly I cannot spend my valor points on prot, as I want to be the best retribution I can be. What would be your second choice of trinket after Lei Shin in that case?

Thanks and a good new year's eve to you :-)

 12/31/12, 11:53 AM #135 Nairobi the Kenyan Von Kaiser   Nairobi Human Paladin   Spirestone At the risk of this getting outside of acceptable discussion for the compendium, I'll add one suggestion here. If you have further questions, please send me a PM and I'll be happy to help if I can. At this point in the xpac, prices on DMF cards should be low, esp for the tank one. The card itself is passive stam, with an on use dodge proc (~8k dodge for 10 sec, 60 sec CD). Most value dodge below mastery, haste, etc which is why I did not recommend this prior, but if you are strapped for valor, it can be a good alternative. You can macro it to DivProt (though, if you're running Unbreakable Spirit, the cooldowns will hardly ever sync and you'll lose uptime) or use it standalone. Keep in mind that stamina is only really "useful" until you have "enough". Your values of what is enough will change based on what you're working on and your healers, but stamina is the only real hard-counter to magic damage that we have (assuming you have glyphed DivProt). That fact, along with my previously stated thoughts on on-use vs. procs and stat weights is what leads me to use what I do. Though, I welcome any suggestions of alternatives...especially given that there are no heroic versions of either of my trinkets.

 Elitist Jerks [Prot] 5.0 - I'm Sexy and I Know it