[Ret 5.2 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Who ordered the Mogu'gai Panda? - Page 10

cky71321 · 10/26/12, 10:37 AM

If I had to make a suggestion for Tier 5 talents for specific encounters, it would look something like this:

Encounter	Talent	Reasoning
Stone Guard	SW/HA	Only time to use CDs is once tile stacks have been built up - tile stacks also drop twice.
Feng	HA	HA over SW/DP here only for the burst AoE during Shield phase.
Gara'jal	SW	SW works extremely well with Spiritual Innervation, and it's predictable to an extent.
Spirit Kings	SW/HA	Either is needed to help burst down a king when a second is up. HA will be more useful as people get gear and the encounter becomes shorter.
Elegon	SW/DP	Group needs help on sparks? DP. Group can handle sparks? SW.
WotE	SW	SW will line up with Titan Gas phases. DP is a good alternative if you're stuck as the Strength "tank".

As others have said, SW will almost always win once we get 4P. Some utility suggestions for talents would be Hand of Purity for Stone Guard (bleeds, can run crystal that isn't matched, etc), Clemency/SS for Gara'jal (for reducing tank/Voodoo damage), and FoJ for WotE (lines up perfectly with Rage spawns). I know these won't be right for everyone, but these are what I'll personally be using when the time comes.

aylen86 · 10/26/12, 11:56 AM

This is a good source for heroic raid encounters, too:
Ret: Encounter-Specific talent-setups

Balhale · 10/26/12, 3:03 PM

I would not use SW for Gara'jal without 4pc because the enrage timer almost exactly prevents you from getting a 3rd AW. Use HA instead and delay 3rd HA and 2nd AW to line up with 2nd GoAK.

MarshallX · 10/30/12, 9:32 AM

I decided to give Battle Healer a try last night in some heroics....and was pleasantly surprised. Managed to pull around 32-35k DPS and keep everyone in the two groups I had alive. One tank was pretty terribly geared and things got hectic but didn't wipe once.

If people are stupid and stand in shit, it's obviously going to suck, but this might actually be a decent hybrid for raiding.

Will do some more testing and post back real #s

Fierss · 10/30/12, 9:41 AM

I tried using Battle Healer on Feng, and it was a total waste. The loss of damage was noticeably larger than the increase in healing, and blanket healing is less valuable than smart healing. It could theoretically be useful in very limited situations, but you're almost always going to be better off letting healers take care of sustained healing.

Exemplar · 10/30/12, 10:56 AM

Seal of Truth should be upwards of 15% of your total damage (proc and Censure combined). Losing that much damage for some AOE healing (since Battle Healer requires SoI which produces no damage) seems decidedly unwise.

In general the best way you can help your healers is to increase your DPS. Faster phase transitions move you away from healer-stress periods faster and shorter fights allow your healers to worry less about mana.

I'd also disagree on Elegon talent usage. DP is no guarantee of assistance on Energy Charge*. On-demand bonus damage seems more advantageous. Due to overall timing SW is unlikely to be available for both rounds, so HA may be superior.

* Energy Charge are the 6 adds in P2. Cosmic Sparks are the random-spawned adds in P3. For some reason folks across the web have incorrectly latched on to the name 'sparks' for the former.

elsydeon · 10/30/12, 5:29 PM

I love HA for Elegon. I blow GoAK at first, like a ghetto AW, HA/AW the first charge phase around the 4-5th set (we dps 5 sets, let the sixth go), and have everything up for the last phase (nothing like the rush of having GoAK, HA, AW, and a STR pot).

RebornTN · 10/30/12, 11:00 PM

Though haste is the primary secondary stat I figured with ~2200 mastery and ~1950 crit while closing in on 6000 haste it might be time to look at bumping up another secondary a bit. When I ran simcraft and plotted dps points on haste, mastery and crit it still shows haste as being the highest dps gain of all three. Is anyone else running into this scenario?

I am only 477 ilvl at the moment but this seems a bit weird that haste still trumps everything else while having nearly a 3:1 ratio of haste to crit or mastery. I'm using Holy Avenger for most fights at the moment.

EDIT: I did save the results after all, the scaling chart is here: http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3447/scalinge.png

Fierss · 10/31/12, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by elsydeon

I love HA for Elegon. I blow GoAK at first, like a ghetto AW, HA/AW the first charge phase around the 4-5th set (we dps 5 sets, let the sixth go), and have everything up for the last phase (nothing like the rush of having GoAK, HA, AW, and a STR pot).

I use GoAK/AW/HA/trinket on the pull. HA and trinket are back up by the time the sets of adds are coming.

Icos · 10/31/12, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by RebornTN

Though haste is the primary secondary stat I figured with ~2200 mastery and ~1950 crit while closing in on 6000 haste it might be time to look at bumping up another secondary a bit. When I ran simcraft and plotted dps points on haste, mastery and crit it still shows haste as being the highest dps gain of all three. Is anyone else running into this scenario?

I am only 477 ilvl at the moment but this seems a bit weird that haste still trumps everything else while having nearly a 3:1 ratio of haste to crit or mastery. I'm using Holy Avenger for most fights at the moment.

EDIT: I did save the results after all, the scaling chart is here: http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3447/scalinge.png

I'm at 490 ilvl right now and haste is still way ahead, and has maintained its current game most of the way with little fluctuation. The only major fluctuations are that mastery and crit swapped for me around 470 ilvl and crit has stayed consistently ahead (and that gap has widened slightly since). I'm expecting 2 piece to change this, although that's completely speculation on my part.

starywow · 10/31/12, 6:13 AM

Hello,

anyone here find rotation under SW really bad? i mean i am not sure i am taking 100% advantage of the cooldown because of so many abilities that we have off cooldown in that period of time. Atm i am giving it a prio based dps rotation with HoW>Exo>Judge>CS but i somehow feel i am doing it wrong.

Since SW will be our main talent once we attain 4set i would like to get my rotation perfect, any insight?

HA is really nice burst and feels much more controlled rotation with filler tv - filler with the same dps prio

Exemplar · 10/31/12, 8:35 AM

Originally Posted by starywow

Since SW will be our main talent once we attain 4set i would like to get my rotation perfect, any insight?

Just follow the priority like normal - there is no spoon, there is no rotation. Presently under Hero you should be able to use HoW every 2nd attack (CD drops at/below 3 seconds). Outside Hero I find HoW tends to have 0.1-0.3 seconds remaining after another filler. The thing to remember is to follow your priority - you're better using another filler in that 0.1-0.3, delaying the next HoW by 1.2 seconds (or less), rather than leaving the dead time.

It's like everything else - hit the best button available. SW just makes the very good button of HoW available more often (and extends AW duration).

RebornTN - entirely possible that Haste continues to be ahead. The margin between Haste and Crit/Mastery is very large. I believe it would/will take a large disparity before you reach an inflection point. Whereas Crit and Mastery have a tiny margin, so more of one stat tends to enhance the other beyond inflection, and back again. Trust Simcraft. Yet more Haste continues to be better for your gear, and some future check with later gear may eventually show otherwise.

Balhale · 11/01/12, 4:26 AM

HoW should always be every other filler under SW regardless of bloodlust. It has a 3 sec cd pre haste. At 0% haste, you have this sequence: 0-HoW, 1.5 (filler), 3 - HoW. At 10% haste, you have: 0-HoW, 1.36 (filler), 2.73 (HoW), etc.
At 40% haste, you have 0-HoW, 1.07 (filler), 2.14-HoW, etc.

Maybe if you had really bad lag.

Also you aren't better off using a filler instead of waiting for HoW. I checked and simmed it with and without a conditional to wait for HoW. Waiting that short time to hit HoW is a gain.

Exemplar · 11/01/12, 9:07 AM

I can't fully explain why I 'regularly' see 0.1 to 0.3 seconds between filler and next HoW on OmniCC during a SW-talented AW. Based on the math, the only possibility I could imagine is Exo being a spell has a slightly (less than 0.1 second) shorter GCD than a SoB-modified attack (spell GCD gains from the spellhaste raid buff, while SoB does not). Thus HoW+Exo would be marginally shorter than HoW's CD (again, should be less than 0.1 second). This would leave a no-cast window, reintroducing latency (normally removed by pre-queuing the next attack), thus introducing ~0.1 more seconds producing my 0.1-0.2 OmniCC notation. The human mind functioning as it does, seeing 0.1-0.2 two or more times during the 30 second window is enough to expand to 'this happens all the time' as well as inflate to 0.3 extremes. Looking at timestamps on my log it doesn't look like it's anywhere near as common as my memory claims, though I'm 100% positive I saw this window during raiding last night

Regarding delaying for HoW - when I previously tweaked my spreadsheet to delay up to 0.2 for a HoW, I came up with a (small) net loss. Did it again, just now, and come up with no change. Probably because my spreadsheet isn't seeing the need for that delay because HoW should perfectly be every second attack.

So, yeah, just use HoW every second attack. SW is really the simplest talent. DP being random shakes up your priority on a frequent basis, introducing more possibility of human error. HA being an additional CD is something else to monitor and engage at appropriate times, again adding human error in regards to timing.

saboya · 11/01/12, 2:23 PM

Abilities that have a cooldown cannot be queued when they are on cooldown... This has always been a problem for Retribution paladins that play with high ping (that was my case). That may be what you are experiencing, I don't know. In my case I play with 200ms, and the lack of ability queue during Ret CDs always hindered their usage a bit.