[Ret 5.2 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Who ordered the Mogu'gai Panda? - Page 17

Cloudio · 12/06/12, 12:35 PM

Ain't sure if i missed this but, why aren't you including perfect etched roguestone ( + 80 str + 160 hit ) in the blue socket gems on your sheet ? it should be better than the green gem lightning wild jade

Fierss · 12/06/12, 1:52 PM

Originally Posted by Kwayver

Thats a lot of haste! i believe i only have about 6-7k haste in my mix of LFR/VP gear (logged out in my pvp gear so cant be certain, D'oh!). reaching that amount of haste is probably something only Heroic gear could achieve, yes?

I wonder how value of haste changes when you start softcapping under heroism or trinket procs. It might push it down enough to where looking for crit and mastery starts being viable, though likely not until at least next tier.

Hulabaloon · 12/06/12, 6:19 PM

Originally Posted by Cloudio

Ain't sure if i missed this but, why aren't you including perfect etched roguestone ( + 80 str + 160 hit ) in the blue socket gems on your sheet ? it should be better than the green gem lightning wild jade

Lightning Wild Jade is better for me, and for anyone who's simcraft scaling rates haste at greater than 50% of strength

Kwayver · 12/06/12, 6:21 PM

Originally Posted by Cloudio

Ain't sure if i missed this but, why aren't you including perfect etched roguestone ( + 80 str + 160 hit ) in the blue socket gems on your sheet ? it should be better than the green gem lightning wild jade

This comes back to the "which is better, str or haste?" arguement. The better your gear becomes, the closer you move to haste becoming more valuable than strength, however at lower gear lvl's you will want to gem for strength.
The most reliableway to determine when haste becomes more valuable for you than strength would either be bashing a target dummy for a few minutes with both setups (quite expensive) or using SimCraft

Grognard · 12/07/12, 11:46 AM

I've been playing with SimC for awhile, now, and the strength/haste breakpoint seems to also depend greatly on the L75 talent one takes and not just on one's gear. The threshold appears to be much lower for those using HA than for those running SW - roughly 5500 haste rating from gear is where HA begins to value haste more, while SW appears to require closer to 6500 before strength loses its superiority. Don't really see enough Rets running DP to formulate any sort of reasonable benchmark for that talent, however. What I have seen almost seems to suggest haste to a point, then strength in complete contradiction to the others. But, as I said, my limited sample of DP users is hardly conclusive.

Simming really is the only way to be sure, though.

RebornTN · 12/07/12, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Grognard

I've been playing with SimC for awhile, now, and the strength/haste breakpoint seems to also depend greatly on the L75 talent one takes and not just on one's gear. The threshold appears to be much lower for those using HA than for those running SW - roughly 5500 haste rating from gear is where HA begins to value haste more, while SW appears to require closer to 6500 before strength loses its superiority. Don't really see enough Rets running DP to formulate any sort of reasonable benchmark for that talent, however. What I have seen almost seems to suggest haste to a point, then strength in complete contradiction to the others. But, as I said, my limited sample of DP users is hardly conclusive.

Simming really is the only way to be sure, though.

In my current gear I actually have strength valued at 3.26 and haste at 1.52 using SW talent. When I ran it with HA haste was slightly ahead (think around 1.6 haste and 3.1 strength). I'm currently sitting with ~8400 haste and using a normal Shin'ka so I dont know if heroic elegon would change this or not. When I was over 9300 haste I do remember that even using HA SimC showed me with strength being equal or better than haste (This was with 505-5 though so it may be different if I ran it in 510-4 and could remember the exact gear/reforge I had at the time.).

Each talent has a haste value where haste overcomes strength but then later on as you get more haste strength pulls ahead later on, at least thats what my SimC is telling me.

If anyone has any more information on a point in haste where strength over takes it in value could you please share some information like weapon, ilvl, 75 talent, haste and strength values?

N shin'ka, ~495 ilvl, SW talent, ~8400 haste and ~16000 strength pre raid buffs for me. Also have 4pc Tier.

EDIT: After looking over new SimC results i'm actually showing Str > Haste with both HA and SW talents. This could be because SimC shows me as having ~14500 str when I actually have over 16000 but i'm not sure.

Balhale · 12/07/12, 8:47 PM

I'd have to double check, but I'm not sure that flasks/food show up in the snapshot of your character's stats, and that strength differential matches not having food/flasks pretty well.

Kyr� ll · 12/10/12, 4:24 AM

I simulated it yesterday, using SW-talent as well.

Stats: 14835 str and 9246 haste

For me the sim result was: str. 3.04 and haste 1.55 - so haste is slightly better.

But during the last weeks I am thinking about if it always possible to get the more value of haste in a boss-fight. Where is haste better - where str? Could it be that str is better in movement fights when you only have short times for burst dmg?
Or is haste always better than str?

Balhale · 12/10/12, 4:15 PM

Actually, haste gets stronger in movement fights generally. The str vs. haste depends greatly on your str, your haste, your weapon, etc.

averykey · 12/11/12, 10:24 AM

The update to Malevolent Gladiator's Badge of Victory - Trinkets - Armor - Items - WowDB makes it extremely good.

It doesn't say unique on it so 10210 strength every 40 seconds, lines up perfectly with all cds and gloves/execution sentence.

nvm apparently the tooltip is being changed to 2.5k, it's just an error.

Ronark · 12/12/12, 8:33 PM

Its good to be back on my Paladin after playing a ranged DPS class.

As I am leveling up and rereading this thread, I noticed that Seal of Justice is not mentioned at all for AoE applications. Like SoR, SoJ will strike every target hit by HotR's Light Wave for 16% weapon damage- The downside is that it only hits the primary target for 16% weapon damage.

This would possibly make SoJ useful on small groups of targets (3-4) that don't last long enough to justify Censure stacking/upkeep on multiple targets (such as when doing dailies or quests).

Kwayver · 12/13/12, 6:41 PM

Originally Posted by Ronark

Its good to be back on my Paladin after playing a ranged DPS class.

As I am leveling up and rereading this thread, I noticed that Seal of Justice is not mentioned at all for AoE applications. Like SoR, SoJ will strike every target hit by HotR's Light Wave for 16% weapon damage- The downside is that it only hits the primary target for 16% weapon damage.

This would possibly make SoJ useful on small groups of targets (3-4) that don't last long enough to justify Censure stacking/upkeep on multiple targets (such as when doing dailies or quests).

I asked a similar query earlier in the thread.
as SoJ applies 18% wep damage on the spot while SoT only applies 12% with dot stack, it may be more viable for many short-term fights.
best way to test this would be to go find a pack of mobs and alternate seals to see which wipes them out faster and delivers more damage in a set amount of time

Nisall · 12/14/12, 3:35 AM

Based on my simc results SoJ is better than SoR at 8 targets (resp. 153.3k dps vs 152.7k) and 4 targets (resp. 103.4k dps and 102.7k dps). The difference being about 6-700 dps in favor of SoJ I'm wondering if others get this as well.

Fierss · 12/14/12, 5:43 AM

I was under the impression you shouldn't even be using SoR against 4 targets. You should be comparing it to rolling 2-3 stacks of SoT.

Nisall · 12/14/12, 6:59 AM

Yes, currently the swap over point is around 6 I think. I was just trying to see if there was point where SoR beats SoJ, but I can't find it. So based on my simc results we should never use SoR hence I asked if others are getting similar conclusions.