[Ret 5.2 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Who ordered the Mogu'gai Panda? - Page 22

Tyresious · 01/10/13, 12:05 AM

MMO-Champ has the T-15 Tier bonuses out. 4p looks like a lot of fun from a sheer "big numbers" viewpoint, and is synergistic with the 2p.

Item - Paladin T15 Retribution 2P Bonus (New) Your Exorcism causes your target to take 6% increased Holy damage from your attacks for 6 sec.
Item - Paladin T15 Retribution 4P Bonus (New) Your Crusader Strike has a 40% chance to make your next Templar’s Verdict deal all Holy damage.

Ronark · 01/10/13, 12:23 AM

If these bonuses stay, we'll have more burst than before-- A 100% Holy damage TV is actually 130% due to Inquisition, which would cause a HoL to also hit harder. Too bad it is linked to Crusader Strike, causing it to make its way back into our rotation during AW and sub 20%.

EDIT: We will also have to see if the 2pc is applied as a debuff on the target, a buff on ourselves, and if the former if it works with Mass Exorcism.

Balhale · 01/10/13, 4:13 AM

I'll work on getting the new bonuses going in SimC and play around with them over the weekend. Be interesting to see how much that 4pc boosts CS.

Charybdis · 01/10/13, 5:58 AM

I'm not sure whether to expect the 2p to be entirely redone. It has the potential to disrupt our priorities enough to cause issues when players are getting frustrated over using abilities during that time, especially since exorcism's use is very "dynamic."

The 4p ties in to the 2p, but maybe not in a good way. We'd need to model whether holding out on a TV to use after Exo is worthwhile for instance. And if we're not already, we're going to edge more toward a swing timer like Quartz to judge what timing to use for abilities.

Metasaigneur · 01/10/13, 7:02 AM

I agree that 2p is hurting a bit with RNG of AoW proc, but still, I sit at 9275 haste and my Exo CD is 12.6. The buff duration is 6s, which lead to a minimum of ~50% up-time. Besides, I am poorly geared sitting at 489ilvl (considering the upgrades) and 5.2 will lead us to even greater haste figures than full t14h bis, which means rather 60 to 70% up-time with the lowered GCD by pure haste if itemization allows it.
So yeah, RNG thanks to AoW can make some big differences from fight to fight, but just as much as things like Divine Purpose or crit.

Besides, both 2p and 4p seem like our burst will indeed be even more outrageous, but it still is a great upgrade on our sustained damage in my opinion. 40% chance for a fully holy-energized TV is already huge. Sadly affected by RNG, but 4pt10 was 60% on swing to reset DS, 4pt12 for DK was a 40% chance of double proc too, etc, and yet these were strong bonuses if I recall correctly.

I think those bonuses deserve some testing before complaining about RNG all the way and see what comes up.

I don't know how much haste would be needed to achieve a ~3s CS (with 9375 I have it on a 3.7s CD) in order to have a Cs<->filler "rotation" but it is totally achievable during bloodlust or during Darkmist Vortex proc for instance (A 2/2 Darkmist Vortex heroic gives 8400haste). It should be around 17k haste so maybe in T15H?

The problem I see is during SW, we risk being puzzled between using HoW, EXO or TV at 4HP.
first case :
4hp>HoW>5HPTV not buffed by EXO
4hp>EXO>5HPTV buffed by exo byt we loose an entire HoW
4hpTV not buffed but allowin us to begin next cycle with 1hp>HoW(2hp)>Exo(3hp)>HoW(4hp)>TV fully buffed

And yeah I'm concerned about the 4HP situation since I always end up like this by using HoW(1hp)>ES>HoW(2hp)>J/EXO(3hp)>HoW(4hp)>TV when I use AW.

It is going to be tricky using SW or is it just me imagining things ? will HA be a better option then ?

I know I'm not a genius in math and theorycrafting, but trails of reasoning is valuable too right ?
If I said some enormous idiocy feel free to point it out, and thanks to everyone trying hard to help us pull out the best of our paladin.

EDIT :

Concerning the 4hp situation, the 4p bonus will infer more conflict with the use of CS too!

Exemplar · 01/10/13, 8:45 AM

My question is: during some periods you get CS, something, something, CS, (possibly something,) TV. Does the 40% stack and this gives us an 80% chance on the TV, or did we cap at 40% chance?

I can't see how 2 piece would be a debuff, since it's "your" Holy damage increased. Expect a new short duration buff on your bar.

If you get the 4piece proc that's about 40% bonus damage (30% from Inq, and around 9% bonus from HoL) from TV. If 2 piece was up simultaneous, that's closer to 50% bonus damage. We're talking DP levels of RNG to DPS - thousands of DPS variance on the same fight in the same circumstances as you luckily chain proc or unluckily chain-don't.

RNG that can 'shake up' the 'rotation', ala AoW for Exo, is acceptable. Blizzard has stated they like that type of RNG. RNG which doesn't change how you play (reserving a TV if you're already at 5 HP, or leaving empty GCD to wait for Exo before using TV would be a loss of damage) is neither fun, nor engaging. Flat bonuses on tier gear may be boring to Blizzard, but proc chance bonuses on gear are frustrating to players. Frustration is something to minimize in games, not exacerbate.

We've lobbied for less RNG for literally years (yes, literally, not figuratively - I'm talking about all through Cataclysm). Movie announcer voice: Now it's back, and this time, it's mad!

P.S. I don't think it will impact priority much, other than returning CS to AW/Execute range. A lucky player following the standard setup will tie/beat an unlucky player trying a more complex priority to increase probability. It'll also devalue SS (saving the GCD in case Exo procs is good), which is a shame. I really enjoy taking 1/3 the total damage of everyone else in my raid.

Zephur · 01/10/13, 11:34 AM

I suspect that 2pc will work similar to Killing Machine for Frost DKs, and would work as follows: every CS, there's a 40% chance that we gain an unlimited duration buff which causes TV to deal all holy damage. The buff falls off when TV is used or when combat ends.

So, for those periods in the rotation where there are two CS between TVs, we would have a 64% (1 - (1 - 40% * 1 - 40%)) chance of getting the buff.

Ronark · 01/10/13, 1:15 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

If you get the 4piece proc that's about 40% bonus damage (30% from Inq, and around 9% bonus from HoL) from TV. If 2 piece was up simultaneous, that's closer to 50% bonus damage. We're talking DP levels of RNG to DPS - thousands of DPS variance on the same fight in the same circumstances as you luckily chain proc or unluckily chain-don't.

With Armor throw out of the equation, that is another possible 30-40% damage gain to all sources.

Cartavian · 01/10/13, 2:35 PM

How will these set bonuses play into our fourth tier talent choices? I am assuming it would greatly devalue Divine Purpose even more than it already is, but how it plays out with Holy Avenger and Sanctified Wrath is going to be interesting. Anyone have preliminary ideas on this?

Charybdis · 01/10/13, 4:05 PM

I have no doubt the bonuses will be powerful, but I do doubt some of the community reactions to them.

As far as getting a "3 second CS" goes, one has to factor in both haste and latency. A better name might be CS alternating. Assuming 100 ms latency, it's 4.5/3.2 at best which turns into 1.40625, or 40.625% haste which is 17265.625 rating. BL changes this to ~3474, so CS alternating is always possible during BL with any kind of decent gear.

It's possible there is some sweet spot where the CS CD is short enough that even if there's a gap it's better to wait on CS, but that'll depend greatly on one's gear, the fight, and latency. I don't think we can reach that right now with haste from gear without some sort of big proc, but years of looking at stats inflation suggests we'll eventually have the haste to hit alternating CS during this expansion. The 4p may change things in CS's favor though.

We need more information to really value the 4p. Would multiple procs stack? For example, if we get two procs before using a TV would we get two stacks and be able to make two TVs purely holy damage? Unlikely I admit, but possible. If that route happens then DivPurp might actually be a decent way of using up the procs.

How long does the buff last? Should we immediately use TV at 3 or 4 HoPo if the 4p procs? Can't answer these right now of course since we don't have gear details to really crunch numbers, but they'll be done eventually.

Exemplar · 01/10/13, 4:30 PM

Originally Posted by Ronark

With Armor throw out of the equation, that is another possible 30-40% damage gain to all sources.

Ouch. I didn't even consider armour. Yeah, an all-holy TV is probably closer to 200% damage. Even if we get an average of 40% of TVs upgrade (could be higher based on frequency of 2 CS before TV, could be lower based on frequency of 5HP TV, non-CS filler, TV), that means an average of about 40% more damage to TV. Significantly more than previous 20% bonus damage.

Interestingly, I can't think how this would skew stats. I expect priority would be about the same as now. Str would still be great (harder hits), Haste to get more CS and TV overall, Crit for chance at harder hits, Mastery for more damage from the larger hits - they all add benefit to 2/4 piece. Mastery might edge Crit a bit, since it's all Holy damage and thus would benefit fully from 2piece.

I'm starting to think one/both of our tier bonuses will be changed. From previous bouts at crunching tier bonuses, I've found that going from zero to 4 piece tier is about 30% overall DPS bonus (this isn't as huge as it may sound, we tend to jump from 4 piece to 2/4 piece, and ilvl alone also tends to scale 30% per tier... although pre-raid MoP blues to epics is closer to 100% increase). If we got +20% on TV one tier and get +40% this tier and 2 piece doesn't seem commensurately weak to balance, we seem to be over budget. I just hope they don't rectify that by reducing the proc rate.

Cartavian - seems like HA may be advantageous with a CS, TV, HoW/Exo/J, TV rotation. We'll know more when Balhale and I are able to accurately sim it (even if we're using best guesses on actual functionality).

Originally Posted by Charybdis

Would multiple procs stack? For example, if we get two procs before using a TV would we get two stacks and be able to make two TVs purely holy damage?

Highly unlikely. If possible, it would have a short timer on it (to avoid an hour on dummies to ensure your entire raid all TV are buffed, similar to the Reckoning Bomb).

Balhale · 01/10/13, 6:12 PM

The t15 4pc will boost the dmg of each TV it affects by something like 86%. 1/.7(no longer affected by armor)*1.3(now affected by Inq). At a 40% chance off CS it'll affect roughly 40% of our TVs looking at my simc T14H profile #s. So avg 35% increase to TV dmg overall, which is about a 4.5% dmg increase. Note that these #s may be skewed somewhat by current 4pc in the sim.

The t15 2pc will have roughly a 70% uptime based on that same SimC profile. 70% uptime of 6% more holy dmg (about 66% of the dmg for that profile) would be an increase of about 2.5% dmg. Including the extra 4% holy dmg from TV conversions with 4pc only makes that go up to about 3%.

So, 4pc, good. 2pc, ok. Similar to current 2pc/4pc.

I think the 4pc will make haste even stronger - the more CS you can cast, the more massively buffed TVs you will get. Similarly, SW ought to benefit more than the other two cause it will buff more of said TVs - an HoW/CS/HoW/TV rotation is sustainable. But yeah, no way to be sure til we get preliminary sims up and running. 2pc could go either way buff/debuff - the wording indicates debuff to me - your target will take 6% inc. holy dmg implies a debuff on your target to me.

ApocalypseAP · 01/10/13, 6:19 PM

The only problem I could see with the 4-piece is, if it doesn't stack twice, there could be wasted procs. This needs to be addressed.

Fierss · 01/10/13, 6:20 PM

Interestingly, I can't think how this would skew stats.

Relative to how our stats interact now, I see haste getting even better, due to the 2pc.
The faster we attack, the more Exorcisms and a higher overall uptime of the 6% damage buff. Also, we may see haste thresholds at the points where you get 5 or 6 attacks in during those 6 seconds of 6% damage.

21250 haste rating gets you to the GCD cap.
12848 haste rating gets you to the GCD cap during an upgraded H Darkmist proc.
6539 haste rating gets you to the GCD cap with just Hero.

Those should be the relevant cutoffs, unless they add a new trinket/enchant/other source of haste, where getting past those points (assuming no latency) would allow an extra attack to benefit from exorcism's 6% buff. I figured I'd list it, since it's been a long time since I've had to care about haste cutoffs.

I see mastery getting slightly better, since a ~50% uptime on +6% holy damage makes mastery roughly 3% better, but general stat inflation may trump this minimal increase.

Originally Posted by Balhale

I think the 4pc will make haste even stronger - the more CS you can cast, the more massively buffed TVs you will get. Similarly, SW ought to benefit more than the other two cause it will buff more of said TVs - an HoW/CS/HoW/TV rotation is sustainable.

Won't we have roughly the same number of CS:TV casts regardless of our haste level? More CS casts means more 4pc buffs, but it also means more TVs, the same proportion of which will be missing the 4pc buff.

I'm not sure if SW should benefit more than HA. If you HoW/CS/HoW/TV, you aren't using your 2pc at all. If you try to weave in Exorcisms, you're losing HoWs or 4pc procs. HA might outpace it (obviously need to sim to find out). Also, DP will benefit greatly from the 4pc, since it will significantly reduce wasted 4pc procs, but I doubt it'll be enough to make up for how much of a lead HA and SW have.

Balhale · 01/10/13, 7:11 PM

Originally Posted by Fierss

Won't we have roughly the same number of CS:TV casts regardless of our haste level? More CS casts means more 4pc buffs, but it also means more TVs, the same proportion of which will be missing the 4pc buff.

I'm not sure if SW should benefit more than HA. If you HoW/CS/HoW/TV, you aren't using your 2pc at all. If you try to weave in Exorcisms, you're losing HoWs or 4pc procs. HA might outpace it (obviously need to sim to find out). Also, DP will benefit greatly from the 4pc, since it will significantly reduce wasted 4pc procs, but I doubt it'll be enough to make up for how much of a lead HA and SW have.

Same proportion sure - but haste will create an increase in the absolute # of buffed TVs.

The t75 talent stuff is all conjecture at this point anyway. There are arguments to be made for all of them.