We have two competing desires simultaneously. Nerfing Censure (to increase value of other seals) would reduce our 'passive' damage, exacerbating burst in a minor fashion. Nerfing burst without dropping total DPS would require a 'passive' DPS increase - the easiest route to do so for Ret being Censure or seal procs. Rather hard to do both simultaneously.

Then there are the PvE vs PvP consequences. I'd gladly drop burst for more consistently even damage, but that could put a big crimp in someone playing Ret in PvP. There's also the consideration that burst can be very useful during specific stages of some boss fights.

I would agree with Balhale that reducing AW's CD would be a step in the right direction - more frequent usage means each window can be a smaller burst and still add to the same overall total. Drop it from 20%, if necessary, to maintain overall total DPS (infrequent + strong = frequent + less strong).

Hulabaloon - regarding AOE, they could buff DS and HotR significantly without issue. As long as DS does no more than, say, 95% of TV we wouldn't use it on single target. Same for HotR and CS. Give at least 5% drop from single-target attack and the community wouldn't use an AOE on single target, but that would make 2 targets a very attractive 190%. There's a lot of territory between where they presently exists and 95% of TV/CS - somewhere in that range should be competitive with other classes. To my eye, Blizzard could easily buff this area if they desired without causing unforeseen consequences elsewhere.

The SoR increase alone will be pleasant, reducing the required number before it's even vaguely useful. However, I'd suggest following along with the removal of Auras (one of our core class distinctions) - remove active choice of seals. Baseline Ret/Prot attacks to apply Censure on single target attacks and Righteousness on AOE attacks. The Righteousness portion could be heavily buffed, since only 2 of our active attacks could proc it (and autoattack could not). It would eliminate the whole GCD swap issue (which is part of why we fall behind on AOE - the there-and-back-again GCDs alone require a prolonged AOE phase to be worthwhile). Naturally, if this were implemented I'd recommend Holy function as if running SoI.

Seals are a no-brainer right now. Blizzard is struggling to make them even situationally useful. If they don't have distinct and useful niches, get rid of them.

Actually I think it's the opposite problem. They don't want average joe paladin that doesn't read forums or theorycraft to have to worry about macroing seals to each ability and seal twisting throughout a fight to get optimal dps.

Seals, as they currently stand, off the GCD would be very bad. As Hulabaloon stated, you'd then be able to macro swapping (potentially on every single attack), which would make any intelligent usage moot and hurt Joe the Plummerdin who does not theorycraft and use such macros. However, complete removal of seals (sacred cow or not - they removed auras without a qualm) and making them auto-magically semi-intelligent (cast an AOE, let it perform an AOE proc!) would removes the whole 'Hmmm, how do we make it so people actually want to use different ones' issue.

When a mechanic becomes outdated and no longer serves a useful purpose, Blizzard hasn't been afraid to pare back. Just look at talents. Seals (and probably Rogue poisons) are getting past their expiration date, but then, so are glancing attacks, and autoattack vs casters (I'd incline towards some sort of 'autowand' (I'm aware many ranged wouldn't have a wand wielded) passive damage from casters seems to me to make balancing DPS easier).

Unfortunately, this is all armchair game design. Blizzard has expressed some tiny interest in tweaking seals, but otherwise not even hinted that they are unhappy with AOE/cleave being behind the curve or that they harbour any displeasure at Ret being very bursty with lower DPS between windows. So we're suggesting fixes to things they aren't publicly even investigating.

Have any of you number crunchers identified much change in our priority come next tier bonuses? I'm assuming exo will make its way ahead of how with the 2 pc. Will crusader strike move up at all or at the very least sneak into the aw rotation. Also would we end up using the new 4 pc Procs immediately or just stick to priority to keep maximum hp generation?

Source: PTR Class and Set Bonus Issues, Part III - Forums - World of Warcraft

Ok, so they havent announced any changes to our low end cleave, but at least they seem to know about it.

TV5 > T90 > HoW > CS > Exo > J > TV3/4 (with 4pc)

2 min wings baseline may change that.

@Idulraah

It's actually better imo to have roughly the same average output but do with burst highs and lows rather than flat sustained dps - let's you take more advantage of burn phases, e.g. H-Wind Lord or the end of H-Elegon. See also ret's burst on Spine in DS.

Also, the buffs you are complaining about are to the lower specs of hunters and locks - MM, Destro, Demo - these specs are not doing as well, especially MM.

Finally, HoTR is worth using at 2 targets already.

Balhale, cooldowns are still there and will provide the necessary burst when needed. I'm talking about reliable steady DPS, not averaged DPS from montagne rousse highs and lows..

HotR may be slightly better on paper, but it still hits like a wet noodle compared with other cleave abilities/specs. You can't tell me you're happy with its damage output..

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. As long as our overall output is balanced - i.e. we are roughly middle of the pack, which we should be between the 2min AW cd baseline and our t15 4pc, it is better to have high burst low sustained (like we do now) than medium burst medium sustained (which is what would happen if they buffed CS/TV/J/Exo cause they'd also likely nerf our cds - see repeated comments from GC on this).

And of course I would "like" more cleave. Doesn't mean HotR isn't better on 2 targets already.

While I haven't yet updated my spreadsheet (they seem to be making and reverting changes quite frequently), I believe the AW change bolsters SW, rather like the set bonus has this tier. At 2 min AW uptime goes from 16% to 25% with those extra 10 seconds. Conversely, 2 min matches HA and thus makes it macro-easy to juggle. AW+HA+Set bonus could lead to a tight cycle of CS, TV, repeat under CD. I expect both to continue to easily surpass DP.

It seems like DP really doesn't have a hope of competing with SW or HA for raiding. It was coming up lowest even before 4p T14. As we continue to advance tiers and ilevel increases, more haste will continue to leave less empty space for DP procs and make DP even more troublesome to fit in. For Ret, at least, it looks like DP will remain limited mainly to soloing. Ghostcrawler has said a few times that they don't want to make DP a baseline ability because there were players that didn't like its RNG. There also isn't anywhere else in the talent tree to move it, since the preceding rows are survivability/utility/movement and T90 wouldn't work either. Plus, there are prot and holy to consider. I'm not sure about prot, but I know I love to abuse DP on Holy. I suppose there's always the possibility of some gimmick fight that might make it useful, but even having two viable options in SW and HA is still pretty good.

It depends on what talents you have: Holy Prisim and Sacred Shield take up most of your free GCDs, not to mention fight specific use of our Utility spells.