[Ret 5.2 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Who ordered the Mogu'gai Panda? - Page 32

Elidra · 02/20/13, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ronark

It depends on what talents you have: Holy Prisim and Sacred Shield take up most of your free GCDs, not to mention fight specific use of our Utility spells.

Even if you took HP and SS, haste still wouldn't reduce empty GCDs until after the GCD cap.

Ronark · 02/21/13, 2:44 AM

It doesn't reduce the number of GCDs that are empty, that is correct. But whether or not they are truly empty is the point I am making.

As you said, one can't fill their entire GCD availability with just Generators and Finishers until 50% Haste.

aylen86 · 02/21/13, 5:04 PM

T11 protection 4pc prepull trick is fixed for 5.2:

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Is removal of the T11 Protection tier gimmic going to be addressed before 5.2 hits so don't have to keep it for a 45 sec guardian prepull as retribution?

We addressed it in 5.2. When you remove the set bonuses, the buff is also cancelled.

Maybe there is now room for another small buff to our DPS without that thing going around tampering actual DPS values for top retribution paladins.

Icos · 02/24/13, 10:39 AM

Has anyone done the math to figure out the average speed boost given by Pursuit of Justice? As our haste values increase we may see the average speed boost given by LAotL surpassing it. Napkin math shows we would need a judgement cooldown of roughly 4.5 seconds to surpass a 3 stack of PoJ, which would probably be in the ballpark of 12-13k haste. That might be obtainable in next tier's gear. Do we usually have a full 30% from PoJ though?

Trueblade · 02/24/13, 1:38 PM

I know it's been discussed in length already but I feel one point was missed.
From OP:

Gemming Str + Haste (Fierce) Orange in Red sockets, full Haste (Quick) in Yellow sockets, and Hit + Haste (Lightning) in Blue sockets yields more dps than going full Str gems. 160 Str vs (320 Haste * 0.54 Str-equivalent per Haste) = 160 Str vs 172.8 Str-equivalent. This will only increase as gear gets better.

Otherwise you want to continue to gem as much Str as possible for the same reasoning as above.

The transition point between Str or Haste gemming is fluid. Please use a tool to determine stat weights for your gear - if 2 Haste > 1 Str, gem for Haste. If 2 Haste is < 1 Str, then gem for Str.

I'm using JC and BS as my professions, I was wondering what I should be doing with prismatic sockets. Sounds to me like if 2 haste > 1 Str (I don't know how to work SimC but I'm at 485 gear, so I assume I've reached the inflection point) then I should be using haste yellows and that makes sense. But what do i do with my serpent's eye gems? Again I haven't run simc but I don't think 480 Has > 320 str (at least not yet.) I guess JC is just underpowered. Based on past experiences I don't think they're going to buff it either and when epic gems come out, JC will be almost useless. Maybe it's time to switch something else.

Charybdis · 02/24/13, 5:47 PM

Hoping this will put the nail in the coffin for talking about haste > strength or other stat preferences.

An "inflection point" has been noted as varying quite a bit between different gear setups, so you always have to sim your gear to see what is best. This is true of all gear setups and item levels. And upon changing things out it's necessary to do the sim again to see how the weights changed after shifting stats around. Eventually you'll have to decide on a setup that's "good enough" because changing anything can make one stat relatively better or worse than another since there's a lack of single rating granularity in actual gear. And just because a certain relational setup yields the most DPS at one gear level doesn't mean that it will be the same for all gear levels.

There is no magic number. There might be a magic set of numbers or relationships between stats, but the math involved in finding that out is quite intense and beyond even most theorycrafters here. Hence why it hasn't been done, if it's even possible. And even if it is possible to find the best relationship of stats for a Patchwerk fight, no fight is like that anymore and thus the stat relationships will change.

For the lay man who isn't able or willing to put in effort to learn the tools like SimCraft necessary to really get into the relationships between stats, you will be safe simply capping expertise and hit, then going Str > haste > crit=mastery just like the stats section says to.

If you are able and willing to put in the effort to learn SimCraft and use it for your own character, then feel free to go nuts tweaking your character. Don't assume a certain gear set meets a certain criteria unless you have data to back it up.

Yes, JC can be weak compared to BS because of the design decision Blizz made to double secondary stat gem gains compared to primaries. Whether you want to keep it or switch to something else is your choice to make based on whatever data you find. Trawling through blue posts can yield some very interesting results, and even asking GhostCrawler on his Twitter account can be worthwhile.

In providing information for everyone, EJ posters cannot provide information for just the individual. It would be an overwhelming and impractical task.

Korbah · 02/25/13, 6:06 PM

I noticed a few weeks ago that spells that are affected by Sanctity of Battle double dip from haste which reduces their GCD. Spell haste reduces their GCD like any normal spell, and Sanctity of Battle also reduces it again by your melee haste.
Some examples I can think of currently: exorcism, holy wrath. I don't remember if there were any more currently.

To test this, you can use a macro to cast one of these abilities, and then use the wowapi command GetSpellCooldown to find the GCD invoked.
IE:

/cast Exorcism
/script start,duration=GetSpellCooldown('Flash of Light');print(duration)

I know that Simcraft does not reflect this in its model, and I'm not sure how significant it is in our testing. I compiled a fix version of Simcraft, and it seemed to increase by DPS by ~0.5%.

Edit: Here's some commonly used spells and their GCD calculations.

GCD affected by both Sanctity of Battle and Spell Haste
Exorcism
Avenger's Shield
Consecration
Holy Wrath

GCD affected by only Sanctity of Battle
Crusader Strike
Hammer of the Righteous
Judgment
Templar's Verdict
Divine Storm

GCD affected by just spell haste
Inquisition
Word of Glory
Hand of Purity
Holy Prism

GCD not affected by haste
Execution Sentence
Sacred Shield
Light's hammer

I'm not entirely sure how to prove this besides just asking others to test it ingame.

Xriswest · 02/26/13, 10:10 AM

From the OP.
"During Aw the recommended priority effectively becomes: HoW, J/Exo, HoW, TV/Inq, repeat."

I would like to know why? Crusader Strike procs Hand of Light damage and combined does significant more damage than a single Judgement. So why would the priority change?

Nisall · 02/26/13, 11:42 AM

It change to "HoW, J/Exo, HoW, TV/Inq, repeat." because, despite what you claim, Judgement hits harder than CS+HoL. In my gear I'll need around 80% HoL for CS to beat Judgement.

In normal situations we use CS before Judgement because it causes less gcd clashes. When you pop AW the CD of HoW becomes 3sec which means you'll have an ideal rotations of

HoW, Exo>J, HoW, Inq/TV, HoW, Exo>J, HoW, Inq/TV, repeat until AW runs out.

The AW priority also counts for sub 20% execute range, but HoW has a 6sec CD in the time frame. So you'll get

HoW, Exo>J, J>CS, Inq/TV, repeat

Trueblade · 02/26/13, 12:43 PM

I suppose in situations with many high health adds to AoE down (Such as Windlord in HoF) you would probably replace Judgement with HotR, though (But keep Exo (glyphed to do AoE)) Typically we would switch to our Multi-target rotation (Same as single target, but with HotR and DS instead of CS and TV) at two targets, but I suppose that wouldn't necessarily be try during AW. The rotation becomes HoW, Exo>HotR, Inq/DS, repeat probably at 4 targets, 3 if you have a high amount of mastery (Doubtful since we typically gem/reforge any excess stats into haste) But to be certain you'd have to sim your gear. I think 4 targets will, on average, be the point of doing more dps than the single target rotation. 5 if you are below the average "raid ready" gear and 3 if you are above the average.
(Oh, and don't forget ES/LH in there somewhere. With the level 90 talent having a 1 min. CD and AW two you should be using it near the beginning of AW, once while AW is on CD (Right when it comes up) and again during the second AW. The only exception is if you also have Guardian up. You want to wait for 20 stacks before using the level 90.)

Xriswest · 02/26/13, 1:02 PM

Thank you for the reply. I went and checked some top paladins on World of Logs and you are absolutely correct. Could you (or anyone for that matter) help me with the math of why that is? Even at 50k AP I am not seeing how those results are achieved.

Judgment
Base Damage: average 623
Coefficient: 54.6% of SP and 32.8% of AP

Crusader Strike
((((AP/14) * 3.3 ) + Weapon damage) * 125%) + 791

Thank you very much for the help,

Ronark · 02/26/13, 1:39 PM

You have to factor in Armor reduction for CS, and the 5% Spell damage buff for Judgment- And Double Jep if you are in a 2 target scenario.

Although with the new tier 2/4pc, we'll most likely move CS ahead of Judgment, and possibly HoW.

Pulout · 02/26/13, 5:17 PM

Another potential buff:

- Sword of Light now increases damage by 15% up from 10%.

Source:
PTR Class and Set Bonus Issues, Part III - Forums - World of Warcraft

Dzzope · 02/28/13, 7:25 AM

Originally Posted by Pulout

Another potential buff:

- Sword of Light now increases damage by 15% up from 10%.

Source:
PTR Class and Set Bonus Issues, Part III - Forums - World of Warcraft

So basically everything bar Censure, judge and exo gets a 5% buff? along with AW shorter CD this may be op (unless I'm over-estimating something)

Exemplar · 02/28/13, 8:35 AM

Originally Posted by Dzzope

So basically everything bar Censure, judge and exo gets a 5% buff? along with AW shorter CD this may be op (unless I'm over-estimating something)

Just for the record, based on my calcs (and double checking SimC), Judgment uses Sword of Light. So it's Censure, Exo, and T6 Talent (ES, HP, LH) that avoid impact. Still, those three are around 20% of our total damage, making it more like a passive 4% DPS increase.

AW is 20% damage increase. Even with SW, at 30 sec in 180 that's 16.6% up-time, at 30 sec in 120 that's 25% up-time. (25% * 20%) - (16.6% * 20%) = 1.7% average increase. Add on a bit more due to HoW from SW or matching HA to it. It's more frequent burst, but not actually a huge DPS increase. Blizz knows what it's doing.

SoL is an excellent knob to turn for specific overall increase to our damage. Very predictable and thus very easy to quantify in advance. I doubt Blizzard overshot a target by changing this one value - they should get exactly what they want. That said, I'm never thrilled by a class change in the last week(?) of PTR. It has historical bad results.

Between the two changes, let's overestimate and call it 8% total DPS increase. Just looking at logs, that doesn't automatically shoot us to the head of the pack, much less wildly and unreachably past.

So we get a minor increase to our AOE or cleave damage (SoR buff) and now a passive boost. Sounds pretty much like everything for which we were asking in the last few pages. I don't see anything overpowering here, more bringing us closer to the median. Except, of course, Balhale's estimate for the new 4 piece bonus seems ahead of what I can figure for other classes. We'll see how that is in practice.