[Ret 5.2 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Who ordered the Mogu'gai Panda? - Page 6

Exemplar · 10/08/12, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by Charybdis

It is entirely possible that Blizzard has screwed up on some of the coding for different abilities, especially as they undergo revisions. Thus, every enchant needs to be tested with every ability (including some glyphs even) to ensure we know exactly what does and doesn't work.

Agreed with the premise, but somewhat backwards. It's not the abilities that are odd, but the enchants/trinkets/procs that are unusual. There have been cases in the past where precisely identical tooltip text (such as "procs on melee attack") on a trinket in the same tier have had different eligible attacks. It always boggles me, since the easiest method to design such a system would be to run things through the same set of code, or at worst copy/paste the same code with a few tweaks. Neither of which seems the case.

Balhale's math checks for Windsong. A 15min run is plenty long to have seen noticeable variance and his value is so close to perfectly average it rules out Censure application or seals. I'm sure we'll nail specifics, then be able to determine effective values and compare them.

Balhale · 10/08/12, 7:12 PM

Confirm Windsong procs off CS and TV. In 77 Judgments and 35 Exos I observed no procs. However, there was a blue post recently saying Windsong is not working correctly, so it is possible that those are bugged and should be eligible to proc. Also could use a larger sample size. Have not yet checked HoW with Windsong.

Judgment is working fine with Relic of Xuen though.

Confirm Elemental Force procs off CS, J, TV, HoW. In 25 Exos I observed no procs. Need a larger sample size again but don't have time to do it right now.

Levothan · 10/09/12, 8:25 AM

Good morning all. Is there any thoughts on how to maximize damage with Double Jeopardy? In the past I used a focus target macro for my secondary add and just judged that target while melee swinging to run two stacks of censure. With this glyph that is no longer possible. Yes I can just switch targets but has anyone devised a more effective way of doing this? Thank you for your help and input and great job to all the forum posters.

Exemplar · 10/09/12, 9:06 AM

Windsong sounds bugged based on how Blizzard explained the proc. Any melee or non-periodic spell damage supposedly should trigger it, so Judge, Exo, and HoW should be valid. Not triggering on Judge or Exo (and possibly HoW) is definitely going to lower its value.

If Elemental Force is functioning properly and Windsong is not, then the superior enchant could be EF right now. Not because EF is truly better, but because Windsong is worse than it ought to be.

Presuming that Exo cannot proc and HoW does not work for Windsong, I'm still finding that Windsong should be ahead in all gear based on averages.

That said, looking at several logs (my own and a few of you in this forum), I'm seeing Windsong up-time between 12% and 20% (per buff), which is far lower than it ought to be (40%+ per buff) even with only the above listed procs. If someone has a log where they used EF I could compare more directly to see how close it matches expectations. Again, EF may be better because WS is underperforming.

Balhale · 10/09/12, 10:17 AM

Why should Windsong be at 40%+ per buff?

Exemplar · 10/09/12, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Balhale

Why should Windsong be at 40%+ per buff?

Based on logs the buff does not rotate a sequence (I've seen one or two buffs procced/refreshed several times before the third every occurs). This rules out a 'proc, then select next buff' design. So the options are either:
A) eligible attack has chance to proc all 3 - if any procs ICD prevents the other 2
B) eligible attack has chance to proc - 1 selected at random

The first means each proc has its own independent up-time measurement, which should be close to 40% (this is determined by proc rate, length of buff, ability to refresh, eligible attacks). The second means combined up-time is around 40%, so each separately is closer to 13%.

If it's the second - proc picks randomly 1 of 3, then there is no need for the ICD. 2 attacks within 1 second would either refresh the same buff (1 extra second is negligible) or proc 2 separate abilities (not much different than proccing them 1 second apart)? Whereas if a single attack could proc all 3, you'd need the ICD to stop it once any one was triggered. The presence of the ICD inclines towards the second.

The reports by various classes during Beta (very high up-time of all 3 buffs simultaneously) definitely inclined me towards the independent measure. Otherwise all 3 simultaneous would be a rare event rather than a common one (13%^3 = 0.2%).

Still, it's entirely possible they changed or fixed the mechanic since Beta. Everyone shouting that all 3 could exist simultaneously for high up-time may have pointed out an unintended design flaw. Or the broken part (which is mostly impacting casters) has impacted other aspects.

Bottom line, it's definitely not even close to my original expected value.

Balhale · 10/09/12, 11:58 AM

Windsong was changed during Beta down from that very high uptime. It hasn't been 40% uptime per buff for a long time.

Just did a 10minute dummy parse - 17%, 13%, 11% for buff uptimes. As I recall it was a little higher than that at the end of beta, around 20%, but I don't have any of my logs from the last time I tested it in beta.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Sha_ · 10/09/12, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Levothan

Good morning all. Is there any thoughts on how to maximize damage with Double Jeopardy? In the past I used a focus target macro for my secondary add and just judged that target while melee swinging to run two stacks of censure. With this glyph that is no longer possible. Yes I can just switch targets but has anyone devised a more effective way of doing this? Thank you for your help and input and great job to all the forum posters.

Have you tried a mouse over macro for judg?

kyral · 10/10/12, 3:20 PM

Whats "es" in the rotation
and TV doesnt hit any higher with 4 or 5 HP than it does at 3 so why wait til 5?

Podima · 10/10/12, 3:30 PM

ES is Execution Sentence. I was going to point you towards Exemplar's glossary, but it's actually not in there. Exemplar, do you want to add that as well as the other L90 abilities if they're not already in?

The reason behind waiting till you have 4 or 5 HP to use TV is because using TV at 3 HP could delay using another holy power generator, which will result in less HP over the course of the fight and less damage.

Exemplar · 10/10/12, 4:38 PM

Good point. Glossary expanded a bit. Folks, please PM me anything else that you think belongs in the glossary.

kyral · 10/10/12, 5:13 PM

Ive noticed its very tricky to play a ret pelly with all the cooldowns procs and trying to maintain inquisition.
Would I notice a dps loss is I used an addon like clcret?
any tips for a paldin who wants to play without such an add on?
I can become quite a bit flustered when it comes to maintaining everything to keep optimal dps

Sha_ · 10/10/12, 5:24 PM

Originally Posted by kyral

Ive noticed its very tricky to play a ret pelly with all the cooldowns procs and trying to maintain inquisition.
Would I notice a dps loss is I used an addon like clcret?
any tips for a paldin who wants to play without such an add on?
I can become quite a bit flustered when it comes to maintaining everything to keep optimal dps

You can try to use power auras to see when things proc e to keep track of the Inq

Kwayver · 10/10/12, 9:19 PM

Originally Posted by Levothan

Good morning all. Is there any thoughts on how to maximize damage with Double Jeopardy? In the past I used a focus target macro for my secondary add and just judged that target while melee swinging to run two stacks of censure. With this glyph that is no longer possible. Yes I can just switch targets but has anyone devised a more effective way of doing this? Thank you for your help and input and great job to all the forum posters.

There may be no point in doing this, depending on how SoT operates now.
in cata, possibly even into the pre-release of mop combat, SoT energized your judgement to inflict an additional 100% damage at 5 stacks. If this is still the case (which the tooltip seems to imply it isnt, however tooltips have been wrong in the past) then target swapping for the additional 20% wont be worth it, unless you can maintain uptime on 5 censure stacks as you swap (which is a useful strategy for fights like fragrant wats-her-face and silent panda-head in Shado-pan monastery). Having said that, very few fights allow full optimization of this circumstance.

can anyone confirm if judgements damage still receives benefits from censure stacks?

Kwayver · 10/10/12, 9:41 PM

Its also worth noting as a general footnote if you spec in DP, this will flux your rotation/FCFS quite significantly.
I'm nor sure where it ranks in terms of importance, however I currently operate this spec choice and find its importance can be staged last until either:

- HP has reached its max
- DP is about to drop off, ie 1 sec remaining

This ensures that if you dont get chain procs, you end up with a buffer of 5hp to unleash after the chain ends, which in turn can reinitialize another chain if you're lucky. utilizing the proc just before it drops off ensures its not wasted.
otherwise, this makes a good GCD filler for CD blackspots.
exception to the 5hp rule would be ES/Prism/AOE hammer, as they do not generate HP and having long CD's should be used asap.