[Ret 5.2 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Who ordered the Mogu'gai Panda? - Page 8

Kwayver · 10/14/12, 8:06 PM

Originally Posted by Vonriel

I'm a little confused on the reasoning behind Execution Sentence being the strictly better solution for single-target fights. Yes, because of that strictly-better spell power scaling, it will pull ahead of Holy Prism past a certain point. I won't even try to deny that. My concern is prior to that point: That is, what is the spell power requirement for Execution Sentence to pull ahead of Holy Prism on single-target encounters?

The following table lists the time between casts of Holy Prism, and the amount of spell power required for Execution Sentence's damage to be equivalent to Holy Prism's damage. Since I'm lazy and didn't want to actually calculate out different cast times for Execution Sentence, the assumption is that Execution Sentence gets cast exactly when available. This works out for the comparison anyway, as any delay in Execution Sentence's cast ends up being favorable to Holy Prism.

Time	Spell power
20s	21441
21.5s	16425
23s	13165.5

I would think this means that Holy Prism pulls ahead of Execution Sentence on single-target fights for now, wouldn't it? Or is there something else I'm missing? Doing a quick look-through of several armory profiles here, a couple of you would be above the 13k spell power mark when raid-buffed, but it seems the average is decently below that point.

Edited to add:
I didn't bother comparing the aoe damage between Holy Prism and Light's Hammer, as I'm fairly certain Light's Hammer is just plain better at any number of targets above 1, and definitely better at numbers above 5.

Given that prism has a 20s CD and ES has a 60s CD, lets assume prism does exactly a third the damage ES does.
A couple reasons to pick ES over prism given this info:
- during CD/proc uptime, ES makes 100% benefit of its duration. prism will only receive an equivalent of 33% of this benefit as most CD/proc will have worn off by your second and third cast.
- casting ES requires 1 GCD. casting prism requires 3 GCD
- holy prism requires mana to be cast (there are nearly no circumstances that a ret pally would have no mana, however the only circumstance where it could become a problem is after casting CD's, as most of them require mana)

... and from a pvp sandpoint, ES is perfect for taking out healers. casting prism every 20 seconds doesnt do enough short burst harassment to take them down, whereas the constant harassment of ES accompanied with your usual belting prevents most healers from rising above the punishment, resulting in the "final burst" of ES either finishing them off, or dropping them to a HoW state shortly followed by an entirely different hammer to the face.

Exemplar · 10/15/12, 8:28 AM

Originally Posted by poloqq

seeing that crit and mastery are very close, my question is: do sims take under consideration warrior skull banners rotates during cds, and if the dont, would the presence of these banners (say, 80% of the time?) during cds tip the scales in favor of crit above mastery?

My spreadsheet presently does not model banner-rotations. That said, if you have high banner up-time, it devalues Crit, it does not increase Crit's desirability. The more Crit you have, the more you want stats other than Crit.

As we've said many times before - the more you have of stat A, the better stats B and C become.

• Balinor · 10/15/12, 10:03 AM

Question about cool downs:

In trying to maximize use of cool downs, both abilities and items, I am trying to figure out which items to macro with which abilities. I am an engineer with Synapse Springs II and have [Lessons of the Darkmaster]. Synapse Springs has a cd of 1 min which lines up nicely with Execution Sentence. Lessons of the Darkmaster has cd of 2 min which lines up nicely with Holy Avenger. The problem is when I hit my HA macro including Avenging Wrath, it puts a 20 second cool down on Synapse Springs. When I use Synapse Springs it only puts a 10 second cool down on Lessons of the Darkmaster. This means that I can not use my cool downs in a way to get all the buffs at the same moment.

Should I just macro Synapse Springs with Templar Verdict and not worry about trying to line it up with the other cool downs?

Balhale · 10/15/12, 1:21 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

My spreadsheet presently does not model banner-rotations. That said, if you have high banner up-time, it devalues Crit, it does not increase Crit's desirability. The more Crit you have, the more you want stats other than Crit.

As we've said many times before - the more you have of stat A, the better stats B and C become.

No, Skull Banner increases crit's value - it isn't a 20% crit chance increase but a 20% crit damage increase.

Cartavian · 10/15/12, 2:24 PM

Significant changes announced today with regard to Windsong and Elemental Force weapon enchants.

Windsong and Elemental Force Information - Forums - World of Warcraft

Podima · 10/15/12, 2:49 PM

Originally Posted by Cartavian

Significant changes announced today with regard to Windsong and Elemental Force weapon enchants.

Windsong and Elemental Force Information - Forums - World of Warcraft

To this end, what sort of testing is now required to compare Windsong and Elemental Force that hasn't already been done earlier in this thread? Per the blue, "It can proc from any damage/healing event. It keeps track of the last time it had a chance to proc for that enchant." in theory means that Exorcism/Judgment/HoW should now proc these enchants correctly, unlike earlier testing in the thread.

I currently have Windsong on my weapon, and can go beat on a training dummy this afternoon if required. Just let me know what you need. Given that Dancing Steel will not be unlocked for a little bit due to rep constraints, it would be very useful for entry-level raiding to understand which of these two is a better bet for us ret paladins!

Balhale · 10/15/12, 3:44 PM

People should be very close to unlocking Dancing Steel at this point. I've skipped several days of first Golden Lotus then Shado-Pan dailies and I could get it this week if I'm diligent.

Best to be safe and make sure we can get Windsong to proc from J, Exo, HoW post change. It may also now proc from Censure as well.

Jonuts · 10/15/12, 6:42 PM

To this end, what sort of testing is now required to compare Windsong and Elemental Force that hasn't already been done earlier in this thread?

If I understood that blue post correctly, the question between Windsong/Elemental force is decided by whether or not Windsong proc's are 5x better than Elemental Force. It literally does *NOT* matter what can and can NOT proc it, it's adjusted so that (in theory and averaged) Windsong will proc twice a minute and Elemental Force will proc ten times a minute. That proc rate is then further adjusted by haste, which will affect both equally, and thus, is pointless to this discussion.

It's a pure math problem at this point. Is 1 windsong proc worth more than 5 elemental force procs? If yes: Windsong. If no: Elemental Force.

The only testing required is to make sure it isn't bugged. Go wail on a training dummy for 10 minutes with zero haste and make sure you get ~20/100 procs for windsong/elemental force. Slap on all your gear, and make sure that ~20/100 procs goes up by whatever percentage of haste you happen to have. Repeat a few times for SCIENCE! and post results. Further testing such as "what can proc this?" is only necessary if it doesn't behave as expected.

Icos · 10/15/12, 8:12 PM

How is simcraft handling Glyph of Mass Exorcism? Using version 505-2 (the most current) and it's resulting in a 250 DPS loss on fights with 2 targets. Shouldn't it be an increase? I have simcraft set to Patchwerk, 2 targets.

Balhale · 10/16/12, 12:30 AM

I'll check.

Montoyal · 10/16/12, 4:23 AM

Originally Posted by Balinor

Question about cool downs:

In trying to maximize use of cool downs, both abilities and items, I am trying to figure out which items to macro with which abilities. I am an engineer with Synapse Springs II and have [Lessons of the Darkmaster]. Synapse Springs has a cd of 1 min which lines up nicely with Execution Sentence. Lessons of the Darkmaster has cd of 2 min which lines up nicely with Holy Avenger. The problem is when I hit my HA macro including Avenging Wrath, it puts a 20 second cool down on Synapse Springs. When I use Synapse Springs it only puts a 10 second cool down on Lessons of the Darkmaster. This means that I can not use my cool downs in a way to get all the buffs at the same moment.

Should I just macro Synapse Springs with Templar Verdict and not worry about trying to line it up with the other cool downs?

I think using ES on CD together with Synapse strings would yield the best results since waiting for it to always align with other CD's might end up costing you an ES.

Exemplar · 10/16/12, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Jonuts

It's a pure math problem at this point. Is 1 windsong proc worth more than 5 elemental force procs? If yes: Windsong. If no: Elemental Force.

It depends on Haste. Entry level dungeon gear seems to put Elemental Force ahead, but as you gain more Haste via epics Windsong pulls ahead. By Heroic T14 gear Windsong has a clear lead, although at that stage Dancing Steel should be available.

Example: my far-from-cutting-edge gear has Windsong ahead of Elemental Force by a few hundred DPS.

Originally Posted by Important Blue clarifications:

So after 10 seconds, it takes Around 3-4 swings, Ticks, casts, etc should proc it, baring any RNG God Hate. Since The buff is 12 Seconds, its close to 100% uptime?
I think you're misreading 'time since the last chance to proc' as 'time since the last proc'. That's a very important distinction.

By haste, do you guys mean haste rating, total haste effects, or attack speed?
Ah, that’s a good thing to clarify. Thanks for bringing that up. In this case, it refers to the highest of your casting speed multiplier, or your attack speed multiplier. So, haste rating, increased attack speed effects (such as the attack speed raid buff), pure haste (such as Heroism or Bloodlust), or even Mind-Numbing Poison will all affect it.

So we get the attack speed buff to our Haste for proc calculations. This is a good thing.

P.S. Next spreadsheet release should have Skull Banner buff added. It's only about 1.1% extra damage to Crits per banner (20% bonus to Crits for 10 seconds every 180 seconds). If Warriors are absolutely equal damage to all other melee, this would probably (unfortunately) convince top end guilds to bench non-Warriors. If Warriors are a bit behind on personal damage this may be enough for them to be considered on-par so they are not benched. By providing a single-class-only raid impacting buff, Blizzard has again painted themselves into the corner of 'useless or obligatory'.

Ronark · 10/16/12, 11:17 AM

From reading the blue post, it is read as the highest of Haste effects- With the attack speed increase, you'll always have 1.1PPM procs. The question is what to expect when you have a haste effect, for example Bloodlust. Assuming 0 haste rating, the 10% attack speed buff, and Lust, would you have the expected 1.43PPM procs, or 1.3PPM procs? In other words, does it determine which haste effect to use based on the attack speed calculation, or the Pure Haste reflected on the character sheet?

If you are adding SB, you could consider adding in Stormlash totem as well (5min CD compared to 3 and usually synced with Lust due to its interaction with Haste).

Exemplar · 10/16/12, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Ronark

From reading the blue post, it is read as the highest of Haste effects- With the attack speed increase, you'll always have 1.1PPM procs. The question is what to expect when you have a haste effect, for example Bloodlust. Assuming 0 haste rating, the 10% attack speed buff, and Lust, would you have the expected 1.43PPM procs, or 1.3PPM procs? In other words, does it determine which haste effect to use based on the attack speed calculation, or the Pure Haste reflected on the character sheet?

If you are adding SB, you could consider adding in Stormlash totem as well (5min CD compared to 3 and usually synced with Lust due to its interaction with Haste).

I see two options:
Complex - autoattack and melee abilities use attackspeed (10%) * Character Haste (gear, enchants, procs, Hero/Bloodlust, etc), while spells use spellhaste (5%) * Character Haste. Assuming both buffs are present in a raid.
Simple - everyone uses the best buff available for all attacks - 10% if attackspeed is in the raid, or 5% if attackspeed is missing but spellhaste is present.

I'm modeling with the Simple mechanic, although I somewhat suspect the Complex may be what occurs.

Either way, it should still be buff * Haste value on paper doll. They specifically said they wanted Haste to continue to be attractive for proc purposes. Your example should be (1.1 * 1.3=) 1.43PPM. If you had 10% on gear during Lust it should be (1.1 * 1.4=) 1.54PPM. The clarification seemed to me just to point out that we do gain benefit from the attackspeed buff, which normally only impacts autoattack.

I'll add Stormlash. Any other single-class raid modifiers lurking out there?

Balhale · 10/16/12, 12:43 PM

The way I read it is it's the highest haste on your character screen whether that's your melee attack speed or ranged haste or spell haste.