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01/30/13, 8:24 AM
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#406
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Bald Bull
Human Paladin
Scarlet Crusade
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I believe I can definitively state that in present tier gear our full melee sequence beats Wrathspam hands down. Only at the pre-raid dungeon level of gear was Wrathspam competitive or roughly equal. WoG and Harsh Words shouldn't factor into it - spamming Wrath is better damage than casting Judge, but you have to use the lesser attack in order to generate sufficient HP to keep Inq running (the 10% Crit bonus outweighs spamming Wrath without it). Using more Judge (because there are no AoW procs for extra Exo when at range) in order to get the HP for WoG will set you further behind Wrathspamming. I actually believe that in a cannot-ever-melee situation you may be best using Glyph of Inq, then just Exo 3 times a minute for all the HP necessary.
It's useful for those periods when you simply cannot melee, but given the option you should always pick standard abilities over utilizing symbiosis to be a faux caster. I will be adding a Wrath section to the OP as previously suggested, I'm just horribly busy of late.
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Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
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01/30/13, 9:20 AM
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#407
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Glass Joe
Human Paladin
Alonsus (EU)
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Don't forget judging to stack/refresh censure.
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02/06/13, 1:06 AM
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#408
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Von Kaiser
Tauren Paladin
Wyrmrest Accord
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In my sleep deprived state, I was doing some theorizing tonight. My guild isn't cutting edge at all, but we all work hard to optimize ourselves as much as we can and do well on an extremely casual raiding schedule.
That said, I recently picked up Holy Prism for my tanking spec and fell in love with it. I wanted to check the viability of it in ret, and was a tad surprised. I currently run Divine Purpose + Execution/Hammer depending on situation, swapping into Holy Avenger for fights where burst is more needed. After tinkering around with SimCraft for a bit using absolutely unoptimized actionlists, I'm coming to the conclusion that Holy Prism ends up simming at worst about a 2-3% DPS loss compared to Execution Sentence for single target, is that about right?
(in my gear)
DivP + Ex = 88k
DivP + Prism = 86k
HA + Ex = 89k
HA + Prism = 87k
The thought process that spurred all of this was reforging everything into crit to bump up Prism even further, which unfortunately ended up being a good bit lower than the standard haste mantra.
Now, I hate dead spots in my rotation, which is why I go for DivP. However, I think that with the shorter cooldown of Prism and the flexibility of AoE vs Single, and the hefty healing, I might give it a try. Anyone had any thoughts or experience?
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02/06/13, 2:17 AM
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#409
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Don Flamenco
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The reason that ES is so strong is that it is a true DoT-- it snapshots stats at the time of cast. This has the benefit of, say, casting ES right before GAnK's 20 stack and AW are about to dissipate, and both the 20% Strength and 20% damage modifiers being carried through the entire ES "cast".
The same thing would apply to any debuffs the enemy has that increases damage taken.
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Lawful Good does not always mean Lawful nice.
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02/06/13, 3:55 AM
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#410
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Piston Honda
Goblin Priest
Mannoroth (EU)
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Originally Posted by Ronark
The same thing would apply to any debuffs the enemy has that increases damage taken.
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I am not sure if ES behaves differently than other dots in this regard (like it does with haste), but enemy debuffs are generally taken into account once the damage occurs, not on cast. But the snapshotting of major buffs on the player alone is enough to make it incredibly powerful.
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There are only 10 types of people... those who understand binary and those who don't.
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02/06/13, 4:05 AM
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#411
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Paladin
Tichondrius
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Blizzard has stated that they prefer to make only dots that can keep rolling for a whole fight update damage dynamically. Examples are censure, agony, corruption, living bomb. Dots that cannot be rolled indefinitely tend to snapshot haste and attack/spell power values at the initial cast.
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02/06/13, 4:26 AM
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#412
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Piston Honda
Goblin Priest
Mannoroth (EU)
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The dots you mentioned also snapshot the stats of the player on cast (or refresh through other mechanics like fel flame), but every single tick of them uses the current debuffs on the target they are ticking on, like the spell damage debuff. I was just wondering wether ES also behaves differently in regards to debuffs just like it does in regards to haste.
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There are only 10 types of people... those who understand binary and those who don't.
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02/06/13, 8:35 AM
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#413
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Bald Bull
Human Paladin
Scarlet Crusade
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Originally Posted by Tikiman49
Now, I hate dead spots in my rotation, which is why I go for DivP. However, I think that with the shorter cooldown of Prism and the flexibility of AoE vs Single, and the hefty healing, I might give it a try. Anyone had any thoughts or experience?
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To take the reply in a different direction:
Using ES (without DivPurp) you should have relatively few dead spots in your rotation, if you're using the recommended priority sequence (those optional 3/4 HP TV do a lot to fill the empty spots). Adding DivPurp alone you're often overloading the sequence (more times where multiple options are available, so something is being delayed). Swap ES to Holy Prism and you should further overload your sequence. From personally disliked dead spots you're going to excessive ability clash, which is a net DPS loss.
While you may hate dead spots, selecting DivPurp and Holy Prism is counter to your goal of optimizing yourself. If you're finding a lot of dead spots, use some Sacred Shield. Taking less damage can be considered roughly equivalent to generating heals.
Also, remember, as Ret your role is to do as much damage as possible. Killing something 10 seconds faster helps your healers than dropping a ton of offheals and dragging the fight out. One less boss ability or a slightly earlier phase transition are not insignificant. Or think of it this way: how would your raid feel if you're in tank spec but used 2H weapons to build more threat and do more DPS? 'I can heal more' as Ret is the equivalent of 'I can DPS more' as Prot - nice, but folks would probably prefer the Ret DPS and the Prot to use a shield to better survive.
P.S. Healers also tend to hate sniped healing or to feel you don't trust them to keep folks alive. Never underestimate the possibilities of Drama.
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Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
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02/06/13, 4:05 PM
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#414
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Von Kaiser
Human Paladin
Kel'Thuzad (EU)
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You would still agree that free heal is always nice to have. I suspect that the glyph of blessed life, giving it's effects to all seals makes it kind of mandatory for rets, doesn't it?
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Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, by Spartan law, we lie.
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02/06/13, 4:24 PM
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#415
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Glass Joe
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Glyph of Blessed Life only works when using Seal of Insight during 5.1, they will change this in 5.2 but even then I would find it to be a pvp glyph since in pve being affected by a fear/stun/snare is rather rare.
Talking about something else I've being trying to optimize my ES casts. Since I'm an engineer I have ES and my glove tinker macro'd together so that's a given. But since I'm currently using DMF and lei shen trinkets, my question is how much is it worth to wait for either of my trinkets to proc before I cast ES or what would be the max waiting time before casting it by itself, noting that waiting for the proc may end up fucking up the sync that 4pc AW has with each second cast of ES.
From some test runs 2 out of 3 ES cast just luckily end up being with one or both of the trinkets procs while the third one actually needs a waiting time of about 10~15 seconds for it to be cast with DMF o leishen proc'd. So how do you guys manage your ES casts with trinket procs.
Last edited by Montoyal : 02/06/13 at 5:48 PM.
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02/06/13, 4:27 PM
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#416
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Paladin
Tichondrius
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Originally Posted by Tobrexa
I suspect that the glyph of blessed life, giving it's effects to all seals makes it kind of mandatory for rets, doesn't it?
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It will be mandatory for PvP, but it will be useless on most boss fights.
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02/06/13, 5:33 PM
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#417
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Paladin
Dunemaul
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Running Lei Shen and Darkmist Vortex and using Sanctified Wrath + 4p, I'll generally delay the initial cast a few seconds to give time for GoAK Strength buff to stack up as much as I can allow within procs. I don't pay mind to Darkmist's haste proc for ES. Ideally, I try to hit ES when both Lei Shen and Dancing Steel are up. After that, I don't delay the next ES because I want to make sure I have more room for flexibility during the next AW.
Once the third ES comes around and the second AW is up, I'll delay it a few seconds if Lei Shen is close to proccing again; picking up a dancing steel proc is just icing. The only time I'll wait longer for an ES is if I'm at the end of the encounter and that will be the last ES cast that I will have time for. I don't want to delay too much trying to get a proc and end up losing an entire cast of ES, and though it's harder to do with Sanctified Wrath + 4p, I want to avoid the chance of missing ES during AW. Those seconds of delay can start to add up on a longer encounter.
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02/07/13, 12:02 AM
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#418
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Von Kaiser
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Update from Ghostcrawler today in the PTR Class & Set Bonuses II thread:
Paladin
- We are going to try Grand Crusader proc'd by CS, HotR and dodge and parry (at lower chances for each).
- We are going to buff Seal of Justice and Seal of Righteousness damage. Neither of these Seals is seeing enough use. Justice was always intended to be a strong PvP Seal, and it just isn't right now. We haven't solidified numbers yet - I'm just sharing our intent.
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Seems like after 2 patches' worth of content, they've finally realized that SoR is complete trash and never worth using except in extreme situations - at this point, it's basically a trap for uninformed paladins. :/ Hope they tweak it back to a point where it's worth using!
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02/07/13, 8:33 AM
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#419
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Bald Bull
Human Paladin
Scarlet Crusade
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Originally Posted by Montoyal
From some test runs 2 out of 3 ES cast just luckily end up being with one or both of the trinkets procs while the third one actually needs a waiting time of about 10~15 seconds for it to be cast with DMF or lei shen proc'd. So how do you guys manage your ES casts with trinket procs?
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Remember, ES does not benefit from Haste, so don't worry about lining it up with anything Haste related. Beyond that, the only question is: would delaying 10-15 seconds lose you an entire cast by the end of the fight? 3 ES without proc are going to be better than 2 with proc. So it's a personal decision based on how long a given fight takes for your specific raid to clear.
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Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
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02/07/13, 5:15 PM
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#420
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Paladin
Zul'Jin
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Taken directly from a blue post:
"Paladin
We finished looking at Seal of Righteousness and Justice. Righteousness we ended up buffing by 50% so it should be a good choice against 4 targets instead of 6.
Justice is much more complicated. It was intended as a PvP seal, but the damage loss is so significant and the snare just not that valuable (which is ironic when you consider Ret's history of not being able to catch things), and Burden of Guilt is there if you really do want to snare. Furthermore, just buffing Justice's damage risks Seal twisting in PvE becoming a thing, where you stack up Censure and then swap to Justice. It could be cool if designed right, but would probably just be annoying. We just don't have much room to buff Justice, and players might still forsake it in PvP.
So, we're going to redesign it and attempt to solve another problem, which is Ret's damage outside of cooldowns (which are quite potent). Justice will now proc (and Judgment will count for the proc) a stacking debuff on the target that increases the damage of your next Templar's Verdict. With 5 stacks, this will be a big hit (but not an insta-gib) and opens up some interesting decisions about how to use Holy Power, such as Inquisition or WoG, if you're trying to hold TV. While Truth + Censure will still do more sustained damage overall, there is a chance Justice will see some situational use in PvE, and we're okay with that. Justice is a Ret-only thing, so it should be a Seal they actually use. It won't snare at all, which I expect some will call a devastating nerf, but again, there's Burden of Guilt if you really need a snare."
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