[Ret 5.3 MoP] Retribution Concordance (RetCon) - Who ordered the Mogu'gai Panda? - Page 29

Charybdis · 02/07/13, 6:20 PM

I foresee some difficulties with the new Justice: They'll have to balance it such that SoT is always better for sustained damage, yet make sure that SoJ can do enough burst to be worth it. And if it's worth it, chances are we'll be trying to game it during our CDs for even more burst. We'll also try looking at whether the Harsh Words or WoG glyphs might prove to give higher DPS depending on the situation.

It will certainly shake things up, but whether it will be a good thing to do that remains to be seen. Hopefully it will become a bit of a curiosity for PvE in some cases and not one of our mainstays.

Tikiman49 · 02/07/13, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

To take the reply in a different direction:
Using ES (without DivPurp) you should have relatively few dead spots in your rotation, if you're using the recommended priority sequence (those optional 3/4 HP TV do a lot to fill the empty spots). Adding DivPurp alone you're often overloading the sequence (more times where multiple options are available, so something is being delayed). Swap ES to Holy Prism and you should further overload your sequence. From personally disliked dead spots you're going to excessive ability clash, which is a net DPS loss.

Clash doesn't always mean a DPS loss. If further down the rotation casting Y instead of X causes a dead spot or causes a wasted proc, absolutely, but I rarely end up delaying anything other than CS with my DivP management.

While you may hate dead spots, selecting DivPurp and Holy Prism is counter to your goal of optimizing yourself. If you're finding a lot of dead spots, use some Sacred Shield. Taking less damage can be considered roughly equivalent to generating heals.

Oh lord I would never take DivP and Prism at the same time, that'd be way too much. At this point it really boils down to DivP+ES or HA/SW+Prism.

Also, remember, as Ret your role is to do as much damage as possible. Killing something 10 seconds faster helps your healers than dropping a ton of offheals and dragging the fight out. One less boss ability or a slightly earlier phase transition are not insignificant. Or think of it this way: how would your raid feel if you're in tank spec but used 2H weapons to build more threat and do more DPS? 'I can heal more' as Ret is the equivalent of 'I can DPS more' as Prot - nice, but folks would probably prefer the Ret DPS and the Prot to use a shield to better survive.

P.S. Healers also tend to hate sniped healing or to feel you don't trust them to keep folks alive. Never underestimate the possibilities of Drama.

My group is pretty dang drama free for a few years running, and we've all swapped roles at one time or another. I vastly prefer Selfless Healer (to FoL-bomb my rogue buddy or the tank during heavy damage phases) over Sacred Shield -- and I get thanked for it =]. But, my thoughts are absolutely focusing on DPS, the offheals from Prism is just a benefit.

I appreciate the commentary from everyone. Next week I'm going to try a few fights with it and see how it feels. ES is awesome and there's no greater feeling than pumping out a GoAK+AW+Trinket+Prepot ES at the beginning of the fight, but I'd like to see what else is out there.

It's not you, it's me. Honestly.

On a subject-related note, I'm thrilled with the SoJ change. I can see plenty of use for it on things like Elegon sparks, Sha of Fear adds, Will of the Emperor adds, etc. Including some proper seal swapping back into the mix is a much needed boost to paladin skillcap.

Hulabaloon · 02/08/13, 7:08 AM

Maybe if they take seal swaps off the GCD, it feels so clunky and not worth the effort to swap seals and waste 2 GCDs for stuff like Elegon Energy Charges.

Metasaigneur · 02/08/13, 10:53 AM

@Ghostcrawler If you want us to use our seal a bit more, take them off the GCD, buff SoR to 15% Wdmg
21 Jan Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler

@Metasaigneur Off the GCD just means macro. We want to encourage the decision to swap not automate the swap itself.
22 Jan ‏@Metasaigneur

@Ghostcrawler off the gcd means no loss of dps while switching for short time-spans. Which should be fun to play instead of sitting on 1seal

No response from GC then.

So yeah, even if SoJ is not worth switching to during PVE single target DPS, in fights with AOE portions, the loss of 2 GCDs is a great loss. And it would not mean macros at all since SoR is worth using at 4 targets, so no reason to see DS/SoR or HotR/SoR macros brainlessly used among Rets. It will still be a well-thought decision whether to swap seal or not. And good decision should not be negated by DPS-loss or clunky mechanics.

The only way we would be forced to macro spells with seals is if SoJ is indeed worth using on single-target by using a

/cast Seal of Truth
/cast Judgment
/cast Seal of Justice

A macro we would use every 14-15 sec to maintain censure up while using SoJ all along the fight. And that is really clunky too, and not desirable : either SoJ is worth it for short single target (adds typically), either it replaces SoT entirely, but I don't think it's their intent.

So SoT for sustained single and multi-dot up to 3stargets is powerful. SoJ on short single target (corrupted waters, adds...) must be powerful to be worth it but must not surpass SoT on duration longer than 20s. And SoR for 4+ targets is back to where it was in Cata which is pretty nice.

But in order to have a smooth gameplay and not feel like : "Waaait! Don't kill all the adds I'm still on GCD from swaping seals!", seals should really be off the GCD to make swapping seals a smooth, smart and useful move.

Ronark · 02/08/13, 12:26 PM

It should be noted that depending on talents, haste, etc that swapping to Justice could be a DPS loss, where you are pumping out TVs more during cool downs faster than the debuff can like up.

Fierss · 02/08/13, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by Hulabaloon

Maybe if they take seal swaps off the GCD, it feels so clunky and not worth the effort to swap seals and waste 2 GCDs for stuff like Elegon Energy Charges.

It isn't worth swapping for elegon energy charges.

Hulabaloon · 02/08/13, 6:04 PM

Yes, hence why I said "It's not worth the effort"

Nisall · 02/09/13, 2:43 AM

I can understand that GC is hesitant about taking it off gcd due to players just macro-ing it for 1 ability to get maximum effect similar to the old TBC seal twisting. I for one definitely don't want go to back that situation.

There is an easy solution to prevent this though. Have seals off gcd, but give them a small cooldown. Say 3 seconds, that would you mean you have a period of 2 globals without actually wasting dps abilities.

Hulabaloon · 02/09/13, 7:05 AM

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

We don’t want to encourage more Seal twisting. We could consider a 20 sec shared cooldown on Seals if we needed to. We’d rather a PvE paladin consider which Seal made more sense for the fight at hand and a PvP paladin use Justice unless they really wanted Censure for some reason (to damage two targets at once or prevent stealth for example). As I said above, we are trying to fix a PvP problem here. If the new idea doesn’t solve that problem and paladins just prefer Truth still and we create a lot of pressure to Seal twist, then we’re doing more harm than good.

He also posted the numbers for the new Seal of Justice:

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Seal of Justice: Fills you with Holy Light, causing melee attacks (and Judgment) to apply Justice to your target. Justice: The attacking Paladin's next Templar's Verdict striking this target will also deal 25% weapon damage as Holy per application of Justice. Stacks up to 5 times. Lasts 15 sec. Undispellable. Using the TV consumes the stack. The Justice proc itself is not affected by mastery, nor is the mastery proc from TV counted for purposes of how hard Justice hits.

Fierss · 02/09/13, 4:21 PM

I like the proposed change, including the considered 20 second cooldown. Generally worthless for PvE, but could be useful situationally, such as on Wind Lord before the 600% damage buff or other encounter +dmg burst, or during phases where you have to hold off on damage, so you can open back up with extra damage when it's time to push.

What I'd hate to see is where you're forced to weave it in with the 4pc bonus to squeeze out a tiny more TV damage.

Montoyal · 02/10/13, 3:12 PM

Going a little back to the whole H Starshater vs N Shin' Ka, since I was finally able to be in a position where looting any of these two weapons is very possible I simmed both of them with my current gear. I'm getting about 150 higher average dps with the shin'ka. This was with both weapons being 2/2 upgrades.

Is this the case for everyone else where Shin'ka is just barely superior to a H Starshatter or is it just because of the specifics of my current gear ?

aylen86 · 02/10/13, 3:50 PM

Originally Posted by Montoyal

Is this the case for everyone else where Shin'ka is just barely superior to a H Starshatter or is it just because of the specifics of my current gear ?

For me switching to a fully upgraded N Shinka with both sockets (500 Str/320 Haste) was only a 50 DPS upgrade in simcraft. Definetely not worth the valor points.

Losing the human racial (sword expertise bonus) while using N Shinka was a net loss though.

Metasaigneur · 02/13/13, 2:27 AM

New PTR build made SoJ fully functionnal and it increases TV damage by 25% WDmg* (*edit fix, thanks Mamoru) per stack, 5stacks maximum, not consumed by TVs, 20sec duration. Would Switching to SoJ for CDs be a viable option ?

Besides, concerning T14 and T15, are double 2P bonuses a gain, or the loss of the reduced AW CD is too much ?
For instance : I have head and chest LFR 0/2, Legs normal 0/2, Hands heroic 2/2. Is there a way where double 2P would be an upgrade (switching 2 LFR pieces for normal 2PT15) ?

Besides, SoR was buffed from 6 to 9% Wdmg. Blizzard claims it is now worth using at 4+ targets. Is it really the case ? They first announced a 100% buff if I recall correctly, and 12% Wdmg would have been a no-brainer, but 9% seems kind of middle-of-the-road AOE seal.

Mamoru · 02/13/13, 2:50 AM

Just wanted to point out that the tooltip on SOJ says on next TV it will add 25% (stacking 5 times) WEAPON damage not increasing the actual TV's damage. Doesn't sound incredible and still probably only be used on targets that don't plan on living for more than a few seconds.

Ronark · 02/13/13, 3:46 AM

Originally Posted by Mamoru

Just wanted to point out that the tooltip on SOJ says on next TV it will add 25% (stacking 5 times) WEAPON damage not increasing the actual TV's damage. Doesn't sound incredible and still probably only be used on targets that don't plan on living for more than a few seconds.

It is essentially a 162% weapon damage bonus (at 5 stacks) when TV is used on the target, assuming it is affected by Inquisition.

For PvE implications, we would need to know what abilities stack the "debuff", if it is able to be stacked along side Censure or in place of it, if it can crit, and finally at what point Truth/Censure takes over. With the GCD from Seals, we can assume that it would be a DPS loss to keep both Censure and Justice up at one time, let alone on multiple targets.