Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Paladins

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02/13/13, 4:01 AM   #436
Metasaigneur
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal (EU)
Spells proccing SoJ are :
White strikes
Crusader Strike
Hammer of the righteous
Templar's Verdict

Spells NOT proccing SoJ :
Judgment
Hammer of Wrath
Divine Storm
Exorcism

Both debuffs can be maintained on the same target, it is not a "one or the other" situation. As for the crit part, I tend to assume it will be more like our hand of light mastery but I have yet to test it on the new build to confirm.

France Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/13/13, 4:01 PM   #437
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
Ronark's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Hand of Light damage is based on the initial TV hit, where Seal of Justice does not appear to be (It does additional damage only when TV lands, like how a Seal does normal damage on any melee hit).

I will also assume that only the initial hit of HotR procs the seal and not the nova? Odd that TV provides a stack too-- most likely it is after damage calculations and won't cause the TV to hit with a "phantom stack".

Lawful Good does not always mean Lawful nice.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/14/13, 9:09 AM   #438
Rasputin
King Hippo
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Magtheridon
The specifics on the legendary metagem in 5.2 have been released: PTR Class and Set Bonus Issues, Part II - Forums - World of Warcraft

Concerning ret:

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
Capacitive Primal Diamond – 15.00 base RealPPM on landing melee/ranged abilities and swings. No ICD. At 5 stacks, fires Lightning Strike, which deals [280 + 75% AP] Nature damage. That base proc rate is multiplied by an additional coefficient by spec:
- Retribution: 1.923
Which means the gem has a procrate of 15x1.923 = 28.845RPPM. It should be firing roughly once every 2 seconds, increased by haste, for a Lightning Strike every ~10s.

I'll leave the full math to those better suited, but I'm guessing this will work out nicely. Here's the full set of coefficients:

- Assassination: 1.535
- Combat: 0.99
- Subtlety: 0.98
- Feral: 1.934
- Windwalker: 1.084
- Beast Mastery: 1.604
- Marksmanship: 1.594
- Survival: 1.449
- Enhancement: 1.093
- Retribution: 1.923
- Frost DK (2H): 1.309
- Frost DK (DW): 1.572
- Unholy: 1.34
- Arms: 1.771
- Fury (TG): 1.784
- Fury (SMF): 1.951
Of interest is that we have the 3rd highest proc rate coefficient. I'm not sure I understand GC's explanation of it:

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
Three reasons. A) RealPPM procs still scale more frequently with haste, which many specs have drastically more or less of. B) The proc that it gives you in this case scales directly with AP, which many specs have drastically more or less of. C) It’s not terribly uncommon for A or B (but not usually both) to occur on a trinket, and we can swallow that much variance. And there are typically other options for trinkets if one underperforms for you; there isn’t here, and we want the legendary metagems to be equally awesome for everyone. As a sidenote, we didn’t do that spec variance yet for the Sinister (caster DPS) one, but are still considering doing so. The situation there doesn’t seem quite as skewed as it did for the physical DPS, so we haven’t yet, but still very well might.
We stack a ton of haste, which I'm guessing places us in the lower tier of raw AP across those specs? In any case the gem would have always been the best choice, but there are the numbers.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/15/13, 4:49 AM   #439
Hulabaloon
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Nordrassil (EU)
We use a big, slow weapon.

On our last Feng kill I had 819 hits, our rogue had 1001

Great Britain Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/15/13, 3:41 PM   #440
Pulout
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Zul'Jin
Latest changes

"Paladin
- We're worried that we're not going to be able to get the new Seal of Justice on PTR in a good place. We still like the goal of giving Ret more damage outside of their long cooldowns, but Censure just brings a lot of benefits that are going to be hard to reproduce in any kind of "build up to burst" mechanic. When faced with decisions like these where the new design isn't a clear win, we think the right decision is to revert the change. It's possible we could buff Seal of Justice (the 5.1 version) to 20% damage from 16% damage, but overall it would still probably not get much use in PvP.
- However, we haven't given up on the idea of solving Ret's problems of long cooldowns. We are going to try changing the 4pc PvP set bonus to lowering the cooldown on Avenging Wrath by 1 min. This is a set bonus that has worked out pretty well in PvE and would help Ret keep up pressure more frequently without getting to the point of one-shot abilities."

Straight from another blue post by Ghostcrawler.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/15/13, 10:28 PM   #441
BentBlyant
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Saurfang (EU)
Why don't they just lower censure damage and buff the damage from other sources to make the effect of the seal slightly less, but still viable? It seems like they designed Censure to be just too strong, that a new one is unlikely to be favored much amongst paladins.

They set a goal of giving ret more damage outside long cooldowns, well...how hard can it be? Buff overall dps and nerf cooldowns to stabilize. Personally I don't neccesarily want buffs to our overall DPS I just want to be more consistent and not do huge dps occasionally.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/15/13, 11:22 PM   #442
cidica
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by BentBlyant View Post
Why don't they just lower censure damage and buff the damage from other sources to make the effect of the seal slightly less, but still viable? It seems like they designed Censure to be just too strong, that a new one is unlikely to be favored much amongst paladins.

They set a goal of giving ret more damage outside long cooldowns, well...how hard can it be? Buff overall dps and nerf cooldowns to stabilize. Personally I don't neccesarily want buffs to our overall DPS I just want to be more consistent and not do huge dps occasionally.
While I agree with this fully I think part of the issue is not so much the raiding Ret Paladins as it is the Ret's that just play to see big numbers at times. GC made a Cooler post awhile back talking about redoing the stats as a whole (item squish iirc) and while for them internally it looked fine and we were doing the same damage (all classes not just ret) The team decided that a lot of people would freak out if they went from doing 200k dps down to 2000 dps (as an example)

I think the same thing would apply here I would be for them removing some of the damage from censure and putting it to use within other abilites that we have to help level out our dps and not be so much of a burst class but we are some of the "minority" in that thinking vs the rest of the players that would head to the forums and complain that they can not hit the big numbers from cooldowns and that "we have been nerfed for no reason" attitude.

While I love my burst (and as does my guild) I would gladly give up some of it to be inline with warriors/dk's with sustained damage over all then have a huge burst every 3 minutes (2 with current 4pc T14 set) Yet at the same time how many people would turn and accuse them of just flat out nerfing us for no reason and not see that while the burst would be a nerf (in essence) overall we would be better off and happier as a whole.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/16/13, 1:20 AM   #443
Balhale
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Paladin
 
Bladefist
They really should just give us 2 min wings baseline again. Doesn't increase burst from what we have now, they've given it as a set bonus for both pve/pvp, and would push ret more towards middle of the pack.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/16/13, 1:52 AM   #444
Lacroix
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Thunderhorn
Originally Posted by BentBlyant
Why don't they just lower censure damage and buff the damage from other sources to make the effect of the seal slightly less, but still viable? It seems like they designed Censure to be too strong...
Originally Posted by cidica View Post
While I agree with this fully I think part of the issue is not so much the raiding Ret Paladins as it is the Ret's that just play to see big numbers...
I can't say that I agree with either statements here. Yes Ret is known for burst, yes censure is strong but was designed to be so to compete with other DPS melee and range included. It gives us some damage during ranged periods of boss fights, and provides us with a legitimate way to have a "cleave" mechanic while allowing us to vary our rotation with TV or DS instead of a boring sweeping strikes button.

Talking about players who would "cry" there's more to why blizzard doesn't want to buff sustained damage than negative forum comments/lost subs. It gives us more utility for fights that call for it albeit t14 hasn't presented enough of these to argue but looking back at Zon'ozz, Hagara, and Spine 2 minute burst was an amazing tool to have. It's also a niche that separates us from warriors and dks and if they can balance us without losing an identity we're glad to have instead of the alternative they'll chose the former, and I for one am happy for that.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/16/13, 5:50 AM   #445
Balhale
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Paladin
 
Bladefist
I totally agree with you regarding burst - burst is not something to complain about having. Have high burst is hugely helpful anytime you can line it up with a damage boost/vulnerability phase etc.

However, Censure is not a particularly effective cleave at all. Ret 2 target cleave damage is low compared to Frost DKs, Warriors, or Combat Rogues.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/16/13, 7:50 AM   #446
Hulabaloon
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Nordrassil (EU)
Personally I enjoy our niche of insanely high burst damage/mediocre sustain. It makes fights like Wind Lord hc a lot of fun.

I wish they would look into some way to make our AoE even remotely competitive though. The fact that they don't have much headroom to buff HotR or DS without making them the best option on single target means the only way they can really fix it is through seals. Though maybe Exorcism working more like Howling blast would be pretty cool.

Great Britain Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/16/13, 9:27 PM   #447
Baird
¿
 
Human Paladin
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Hulabaloon View Post
Though maybe Exorcism working more like Howling blast would be pretty cool.
They already have a glyph in place that makes it do AoE damage, the problem is it is at the expense of doing the regular single target damage we're already accustom to.

Canada Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/17/13, 12:54 AM   #448
anafielle
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Whisperwind
Originally Posted by Baird View Post
They already have a glyph in place that makes it do AoE damage, the problem is it is at the expense of doing the regular single target damage we're already accustom to.
Not really. Glyph of Mass Exo doesn't cost you any single target damage at all - it does full damage to the primary target and splashes 25% bonus damage to all other targets in 8 yds. It is simply inconvenient on some fights because it requires melee range.

This is a really common misconception and I don't understand why people think this. Glyph of Mexo is really great.

Last edited by anafielle : 02/17/13 at 1:02 AM.

Sacred Duty: A Paladin Blog

<Something Wicked> - 11/13 HM 25m - W/Th/Sun 8-12 CST LF monk healer and DPS - www.somethingwickedguild.com

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/17/13, 12:56 AM   #449
Pdawg
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Tichondrius
Many mistake cooldowns with burst damage. Ret is NOT a high burst class, even under AW. AW combined with HA or SW allows to sustain a high amount of damage for 20 or 30 seconds. It does not allow us to do 500k damage in 2 or 3 GCDs as other classes can do by building stacks for a few seconds or waiting for SHORT 10 or 20 second cooldowns, allowing them to burst hard and burst often. The proposed SoJ change would have brought us closer to high burst, but for one reason or another it just didn't work out.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/17/13, 5:04 PM   #450
Charybdis
Don Flamenco
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Area 52
I'd probably call Ret a slow burst kind of spec. We usually can't do 500k in a few GCD's, but our average damage during our cooldowns is usually competitive with quick burst specs and can pressure opponents if played right.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Paladins

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Retribution Concordance - 4.0.1 Exemplar Paladins 482 12/06/10 3:31 PM