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Old 10/10/12, 10:03 PM   #91
Kwayver
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Barthilas
Originally Posted by kyral View Post
Ive noticed its very tricky to play a ret pelly with all the cooldowns procs and trying to maintain inquisition.
Would I notice a dps loss is I used an addon like clcret?
any tips for a paldin who wants to play without such an add on?
I can become quite a bit flustered when it comes to maintaining everything to keep optimal dps
i use an addon called ButtonTimers. this allows me to place a duration monitor closer to my tunnel* with a few neat features:
- cast button can be added to the footer of the timer, allowing immediate reapplication via mouse click (but really, you should be keybinding something as important as inq if you got as far as EJ)
- second state point for the timer. what this means is when the timer reaches a certain point, it will change in some way. for example: when the timer reaches 2 seconds its gauge length is reset to full with the remaining 2 seconds as its count down, and changes to red in colour. this ensures when you refresh inq you benefit from the DoT tick inheritance.

I haven't used clc for a while but last time i did it was called clcpt or clcbt, and when something was about to drop off (such as inq) it would flash an icon in the middle of the screen with a tone sound. that should help track buffs also.

Buttontimers allows for tracking of multiple buffs at once. some others worth tracking would be:
- Censure on primary target/focus target (it will also track the stacks for you)
- Sacred Shield on self/focus target
- Selfless on self (it will also track the stacks and proc shiney for you)
- ES on self/primary target/focus target (this is good for pvp when timing the final explosion with a hard hit to take out healers on low hp who think they can be cheeky sods and hover on 30% health without consequences)
- hand spells on friendly targets (good for tracking HoF in pvp when someone spams spellsteal/dispel on you)

look, to put it simply it lets you track buffs and debuffs that you would normally have to check corners or player frames for in more suitable locations

*Tunnel = area of the screen around your toon that extends to proc graphics, but ignores the other 90% of the screen.

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Old 10/10/12, 11:09 PM   #92
Kwayver
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Barthilas
Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
DS hits 4 targets
DS now hits all targets, and is subject to standard AoE rules:

Divine Storm - Spell - World of Warcraft

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Old 10/10/12, 11:31 PM   #93
Kwayver
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Barthilas
To Paraphrase:

Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
Glyph of Mass Exorcism; even at 4 targets, non-glyphed is superior due to the range
I dont quite understand how you come to the conclusion that 4 is the lucky number here, as the defining circumstance is situational, not a hard line figure. some fights will have 100% melee range uptime, others will differ greatly. Treat this glyph as a fight-by-fight decision.

Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
While it is possible to use Harsh Words and Word of Glory together, they have been mathed to determine it cannot produce a DPS increase. Additionally Blizzard does not want this functionality - at one point they explicitly made the glyphs fail to work together. That appears to presently have been broken, but could reinstated at any time.
This may prove useful in select circumstances, however these circumstances are going to be incredibly rare.

In short, while the relationship between these glyphs remains as it is, if you can justify adding harsh words to your glyph table you can basically justify adding wog glyph for the same reason; its there because you plan on using it at some stage, and you might as well receive as much compensated benefit for using it over TV/inq.

Good example fight for this is Elegon. the constant running in and out to reset your stacks may put you in the following position:

- you are carrying 5HP
- your inq is up
- you are not within melee range of boss
- you have at least 1 HP generating ability off CD, or will be off CD just as you reach boss + a GCD to burn the HP

sounds like a 1 in a million situation right? not when your trying to concentrate on all the other crap happening, and clcret wont tell you to burn HP right before your expected to reset stacks. this happens somewhat regularly.

also handy for when you kill your assigned orb early, and need to fire a quick nuke at someone elses, and given that you just burned your HoW on your own orb thus generating HP as you were completing your outward run to reset your stacks, firing the wog at the dwindling neighbour orb and granting yourself a nice damage boost ready to be utilized as you reach melee range on the boss... you see where im going here.
----
EDIT: just to clarify Exemplars initial point, this is most definitely NOT a substitute for max dps when you are in melee range. HP should be reserved for inq and TV at ALL times when within swing distance. its benefits come from times outside melee range

EVERY GLYPH is situational in benefit until proven otherwise or modified by bliz.

Last edited by Kwayver : 10/10/12 at 11:54 PM.

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Old 10/11/12, 3:31 AM   #94
Pdawg
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Kwayver View Post
I dont quite understand how you come to the conclusion that 4 is the lucky number here, as the defining circumstance is situational, not a hard line figure. some fights will have 100% melee range uptime, others will differ greatly. Treat this glyph as a fight-by-fight decision.
I think the line of thinking at the time he wrote that was that Glyph of Mass Exorcism would cause an Exorcism cast on a single target to do only 25% damage. However, we now know that the glyph instead causes the primary target to take the full 100% damage and all secondary targets take 25% damage each. The primary target does not take the additional 25%.



The first 3 hits you see are 3 different Exorcism casts without the glyph. The next 2 lines are the result of an Exorcism cast with the glyph onto two targets. The final two lines are also the result of an Exorcism cast with the glyph onto two targets, with the hit on the primary target being a critical strike. So it appears that each target has an independent chance to be crit, and damage on secondary targets does not automatically do double damage if the roll on the primary target is a crit.

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Old 10/11/12, 3:59 AM   #95
Pdawg
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
HotR pulls ahead of CS at 4 targets.
From simple target dummy tests, I'm currently seeing it pull ahead at 3 rather than 4, but my tests could be inaccurate due to missing raid buffs/debuffs. It appears that we're benefiting from double dipping on Inquisition here. Inquisition increases the Holy/AoE portion of HotR by 30%. HoL hits for an additional 14.8%+ damage. The HoL damage is increased by Inquisition by 30% again.

The single target, physical portion of the HotR strike generates an additional HoL hit. e.g. if you use HotR on a single target, both the physical and holy portions of the strike generate separate HoL hits. Have you accounted for both of these in your calculations?

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Old 10/11/12, 8:50 AM   #96
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Kwayver View Post
DS now hits all targets, and is subject to standard AoE rules.

I dont quite understand how you come to the conclusion that 4 is the lucky number here [for mass exorcism], as the defining circumstance is situational, not a hard line figure.

This [Harsh Words Word of Glory] may prove useful in select circumstances, however these circumstances are going to be incredibly rare.

Good example fight for this is Elegon. the constant running in and out to reset your stacks
Yes, DS hits all targets in range - please don't quote out of context. An example of DS having 4 targets to hit and doing so does not mean it can hit no more.

As Pdawg states the logic was 100% exorcism + range > (4 * 25% =) 100% Exorcism. Pdawg, I was unaware that the glyph still hit primary target at 100%. I do not believe anyone has previously mentioned that in this thread - based on the glyph tooltip primary target should receive 25% which made it weak. Logic becomes range vs (25% * targets) - definitely more a per-fight call. OP update incoming.

If you are away from the boss at 5 HP long enough to despair, then burning HP on a ranged WoG to gain 9% damage for 6 seconds is not going to be a gain. GCD engaging the glyph - 4.5 seconds remaining. A few seconds running - this means you're lucky to get 1 ranged attack and one attack in melee range under the 9% buff. Total results will be less than using Exo/J at 5HP for no extra HP generation and thwacking a TV when back in range. It remains uniformly a DPS loss. There is no present situation where the combo is a gain. This actually sounds like a situation where bromli's 4HP > J could be advantageous to ensure you don't overcap the HP pool during movement.

HotR - I wasn't accounting for Inq on the Holy damage portion appropriately. I was lumping all the damage together then applying only physical modifiers (including armour), then calculating Mastery off of this value. I've just retooled to separate the two and buff/debuff each appropriately (and calc Mastery off the separated values). Even without raid buffs it looks like 2 targets could win (probably depends on gear whether 2 or 3), which matches it to DS. I think dummy armour is wrong, which could be skewing your simple test of CS vs HotR (or CS/HotR is getting more/less buffs than I expect).

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 10/11/12, 1:33 PM   #97
Icos
Von Kaiser
 
Icos's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Kel'Thuzad
So I'm sitting around 474 item level, and simcraft is telling me that crit is ahead of mastery for my gear. Is this just a bug in simcraft, or is this accurate? It has the weights at 0.97 for crit and 0.90 for mastery. I ran a 25k iteration to get all the stat weights, then ran it again at 50k with only mastery/crit scaling checked to make sure they were accurate. Is there something I'm missing here? Every buff/debuff was checked on, including crit and mastery buffs. The OP has mastery being slightly better, is it possible that fluxuates with changes in gear?

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Old 10/11/12, 1:42 PM   #98
Podima
Von Kaiser
 
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Draenei Paladin
 
Duskwood
Originally Posted by Icos View Post
So I'm sitting around 474 item level, and simcraft is telling me that crit is ahead of mastery for my gear. Is this just a bug in simcraft, or is this accurate? It has the weights at 0.97 for crit and 0.90 for mastery. I ran a 25k iteration to get all the stat weights, then ran it again at 50k with only mastery/crit scaling checked to make sure they were accurate. Is there something I'm missing here? Every buff/debuff was checked on, including crit and mastery buffs. The OP has mastery being slightly better, is it possible that fluxuates with changes in gear?
From the OP (emphasis mine):

Originally Posted by Exemplar
Stat weights float in relation to each other. The above is in a roughly T14 Heroic set of gear based on SimCraft. While it is highly recommended you run your own stat weights, in general you can feel safe with:
Str > Haste > Crit=Mastery

Reforging all Mastery to Crit, reforging all Crit to Mastery, or reforging to equally balance Crit and Mastery seem to produce reasonably similar results.
Stat weights rely on what stats you have available with your current gear and do fluctuate with changes in gear, as you say. Crit and Mastery are relatively close with your stat weights, but because your gear is different than full T14 Heroic, you may see different weights than what is in the OP. Crit and Mastery remain somewhat interchangeable (second part of my quote) but if you have more Crit than Mastery, Simcraft will probably recommend reforging some of the higher into the lower to balance it. That's likely what you're seeing.

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Old 10/11/12, 9:52 PM   #99
Kwayver
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Barthilas
Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
Yes, DS hits all targets in range - please don't quote out of context. An example of DS having 4 targets to hit and doing so does not mean it can hit no more.
i wasnt aware the statement you made was an example rather than fact. my bad

Originally Posted by Podima View Post
From the OP (emphasis mine):

Stat weights rely on what stats you have available with your current gear and do fluctuate with changes in gear, as you say. Crit and Mastery are relatively close with your stat weights, but because your gear is different than full T14 Heroic, you may see different weights than what is in the OP. Crit and Mastery remain somewhat interchangeable (second part of my quote) but if you have more Crit than Mastery, Simcraft will probably recommend reforging some of the higher into the lower to balance it. That's likely what you're seeing.
If you had to make a choice between crit and mastery, and you happen to be sporting [Coren's Cold Chromium Coaster] then you should try push for a bit more crit than mastery, as this trinket requires a crit to be proc'd.
as was written in a previous post somewhere, this trinket is terrible in comparison to 463 trinkets from dungeons (which tanks keep stealing form me) so only do this if you are left with no other option

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Old 10/12/12, 1:36 AM   #100
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Weapons, Trinkets, and effects that proc on Crits, Hits, etc are normally PPM based, which helps to alleviate low Critical hit changes or to even out RNG.

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Old 10/12/12, 7:22 AM   #101
poloqq
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Burning Legion (EU)
seeing that crit and mastery are very close, my question is: do sims take under consideration warrior skull banners rotates during cds, and if the dont, would the presence of these banners (say, 80% of the time?) during cds tip the scales in favor of crit above mastery?

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Old 10/12/12, 1:08 PM   #102
Balhale
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Paladin
 
Bladefist
I don't believe SimC currently models skull banners during our cds because a) not all raids have warriors and b) it's very unlikely that they will time their banners to line up with our cds.

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Old 10/13/12, 2:09 PM   #103
Vonriel
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Cenarion Circle
I'm a little confused on the reasoning behind Execution Sentence being the strictly better solution for single-target fights. Yes, because of that strictly-better spell power scaling, it will pull ahead of Holy Prism past a certain point. I won't even try to deny that. My concern is prior to that point: That is, what is the spell power requirement for Execution Sentence to pull ahead of Holy Prism on single-target encounters?

The following table lists the time between casts of Holy Prism, and the amount of spell power required for Execution Sentence's damage to be equivalent to Holy Prism's damage. Since I'm lazy and didn't want to actually calculate out different cast times for Execution Sentence, the assumption is that Execution Sentence gets cast exactly when available. This works out for the comparison anyway, as any delay in Execution Sentence's cast ends up being favorable to Holy Prism.

TimeSpell power
20s21441
21.5s16425
23s13165.5

I would think this means that Holy Prism pulls ahead of Execution Sentence on single-target fights for now, wouldn't it? Or is there something else I'm missing? Doing a quick look-through of several armory profiles here, a couple of you would be above the 13k spell power mark when raid-buffed, but it seems the average is decently below that point.

Edited to add:
I didn't bother comparing the aoe damage between Holy Prism and Light's Hammer, as I'm fairly certain Light's Hammer is just plain better at any number of targets above 1, and definitely better at numbers above 5.

Last edited by Vonriel : 10/13/12 at 2:15 PM. Reason: Wording, and section at the end

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Old 10/13/12, 2:59 PM   #104
Balhale
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Paladin
 
Bladefist
In a real fight Holy Prism is delayed by more than that on average. Yes, there will be times where it happens to line up and be usable at 20 seconds. There will also be times where it is delayed a full 10 seconds or more. The last set of sims I ran to compare the two talents had Holy Prism used every 30 seconds on average because it is prioritized under everything but a 3/4 HP TV.

In any case, we'll hit those breakpoints ridiculously fast. In my 469 gear I have 16000ish spell power fully raid buffed. Additionally, Execution Sentence will benefit more from being stacked with on use trinkets/cooldowns/engineering gloves because it scales better for the short period those are up while Holy Prism only would get them for some of it's uses in an equivalent time period.

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Old 10/13/12, 4:39 PM   #105
Icos
Von Kaiser
 
Icos's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Kel'Thuzad
EDIT: I can't read apparently, please delete.

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