Holy Moley - Page 10

Warlord1390 · 12/18/12, 11:28 AM

I recently went from a 10m hardcore progression group to a 25m and I feel that there should be something said about the mana issues that are more obvious in 10m, as such the stat weights should be looked at being changed for 25m.

10m - Spirit >= Int > Haste >= Mastery > Crit

25m - Int > Spirit >= Haste to 3506 > Mastery > Crit

The additional spirit in a 25m core group hasn't been as useful to me when we have 2 Shamans, 2 Priests, and 2 Holy Paladins in our group. Going for the 3506 Haste rating will bring the haste rating with raid buff to 25.03% haste which will also help us stay competitive in healing against the other classes.

Highmeh · 12/18/12, 4:45 PM

Originally Posted by Warlord1390

I recently went from a 10m hardcore progression group to a 25m and I feel that there should be something said about the mana issues that are more obvious in 10m, as such the stat weights should be looked at being changed for 25m.

10m - Spirit >= Int > Haste >= Mastery > Crit

25m - Int > Spirit >= Haste to 3506 > Mastery > Crit

The additional spirit in a 25m core group hasn't been as useful to me when we have 2 Shamans, 2 Priests, and 2 Holy Paladins in our group. Going for the 3506 Haste rating will bring the haste rating with raid buff to 25.03% haste which will also help us stay competitive in healing against the other classes.

You do have a ton of mana support in that comp, so I'm not sure I'd label Int strictly better than Spirit in the general case. However, I'm going to be starting 10-man heroics soon (after the holidays) and I feel better going in with mastery > haste, so my question to you is what made you decide haste was better than mastery for 10m?

Also, have you (or anyone else) tried putting more emphasis on crit over haste (say, mastery >= crit >= haste)? I feel like it's undervalued a bit too much (it synergies with mastery, is free healing, and grants us more IoL procs which affects the spells we want hasted the most)?

Charybdis · 12/18/12, 5:07 PM

Originally Posted by Warlord1390

I recently went from a 10m hardcore progression group to a 25m and I feel that there should be something said about the mana issues that are more obvious in 10m, as such the stat weights should be looked at being changed for 25m.

10m - Spirit >= Int > Haste >= Mastery > Crit

25m - Int > Spirit >= Haste to 3506 > Mastery > Crit

The additional spirit in a 25m core group hasn't been as useful to me when we have 2 Shamans, 2 Priests, and 2 Holy Paladins in our group. Going for the 3506 Haste rating will bring the haste rating with raid buff to 25.03% haste which will also help us stay competitive in healing against the other classes.

I have previously posted the haste breakpoints spreadsheet for EF and SS here. 25% haste, assuming SoI and raid buff, is actually 3496 haste rating, though due to rounding and other wonky number crunching in the game it might be recommended to go a bit higher to completely ensure that 13th EF tick is in place. Considering the diversity of fights where both EF and SS would be useful, 3500 seems like a reasonable goal all around before going into mastery or crit. Depending on one's play style haste might not be worth stacking before mastery or even crit though.

The "stat weights" posted in other places tend to be throughput numbers. In your experience, has throughput really been the problem instead of knowing which spells to use when and making sure the fight's strategy gets executed correctly?

You mentioned the stat weights for 25's being based on a setup of 2 paladins, 2 priests, and 2 shamans. If a certain set of stat weights is dependent on a certain class setup there's the chance that it won't be the same for other class setups, thus it falls apart when giving general advice unless the consensus becomes it's worthwhile to gear that way in general, which means it's not dependent on the class setup anymore. It's nice to have anecdotal evidence every now and then, but if the goal is general weights for everyone then the experiences of one person or even raid group probably won't cut it.

Pacer · 12/19/12, 1:20 PM

Originally Posted by Warlord1390

I recently went from a 10m hardcore progression group to a 25m and I feel that there should be something said about the mana issues that are more obvious in 10m, as such the stat weights should be looked at being changed for 25m.

10m - Spirit >= Int > Haste >= Mastery > Crit

25m - Int > Spirit >= Haste to 3506 > Mastery > Crit

The additional spirit in a 25m core group hasn't been as useful to me when we have 2 Shamans, 2 Priests, and 2 Holy Paladins in our group. Going for the 3506 Haste rating will bring the haste rating with raid buff to 25.03% haste which will also help us stay competitive in healing against the other classes.

These stat weighings seems dead wrong to me. Im going for int>spirit>mastery>haste>crit and would do in both 10 and 25 man as spirit never will be better than int in a 1:1 scale. I might consider using spirit flask and food on the very long fights but in general on a 6-8min fight I would stick to my int flask/food.

Going for the haste cap of 3506 is a really really bad idea unless you are very close to the cap already. You are looking at a 2-3% increase in healing at most and if you would have to lose 1k mastery like me to get that cap you will for sure lose healing output. That said I will be going for the haste cap once the elite helmet from protectors drop as that should increase my haste by 600 and would allow me to reforge out of a very low amount of mastery to reach the cap.

jodin · 12/31/12, 7:33 PM

Hello,
What is the best profession for holy paladin and why?
I hesitate to take blacksmithing and tailoring for the spirit proc.I play in 10 man, try on spirit king hm.

Sinhel · 01/03/13, 10:25 AM

Hi all,

To make it short, I'm mostly in a 2 Hpally 10hm set up, and I was wondering if I could try a int>Spi>crit>haste>mastery priority, considering that I tend to play direct heal ( HS, DL, EF), with HL as a main spam-to-top-them-off spell, mostly keeping LoD and HR for AE instense moment, while my mate is a very heavy LoD / HR spammer with a intel> mastery>else priority.

Anyone tried it? to what results ?

Edit: Nevermind, I tried it yesterday, to a pretty lackluster result. The added crit is indeed nice, but overall the throughtput loss of less mastery is felt too much. Too bad, I liked the idea of different playstyle / priorities.

djxak · 01/04/13, 6:48 AM

If you like different playstyle / priority try to collect 4pvp set 383ilvl. Reforge int>spi>mastery>crit>haste. Then your priority will be HS > EF > HR (CS). HR can be used even without raid damage at all just for 1HP.
No LoD even on raid heal (maybe on free proc only). 2hp EF is just awesome.

Highmeh · 01/07/13, 2:27 PM

Originally Posted by jodin

Hello,
What is the best profession for holy paladin and why?
I hesitate to take blacksmithing and tailoring for the spirit proc.I play in 10 man, try on spirit king hm.

Blacksmithing: Two extra sockets yield an additional 640 spirit--the highest spirit bonus of any profession--in addition to being a flexible profession.

Tailoring: Darkglow Embroidery also provides more spirit than comparable professions (~570 extra spirit vs. 320 spirit from JC, for example), while also being a flexible profession.

The next best option after the above two is Alchemy; you gain 480 spirit or 320 intellect from the respective flasks.

Originally Posted by Sinhel

Hi all,

To make it short, I'm mostly in a 2 Hpally 10hm set up, and I was wondering if I could try a int>Spi>crit>haste>mastery priority, considering that I tend to play direct heal ( HS, DL, EF), with HL as a main spam-to-top-them-off spell, mostly keeping LoD and HR for AE instense moment, while my mate is a very heavy LoD / HR spammer with a intel> mastery>else priority.

Anyone tried it? to what results ?

Edit: Nevermind, I tried it yesterday, to a pretty lackluster result. The added crit is indeed nice, but overall the throughtput loss of less mastery is felt too much. Too bad, I liked the idea of different playstyle / priorities.

I also toyed around a bit with this, namely with Mastery > Crit > Haste, because I find IoL to be a strong proc to have go off. While IoL can be great, it's still RNG, and haste lowers both cast time and GCD of your spells meaning you can reliably expect to be able to cast more spells.

However, I think there is an argument to be made in that the relative strength of Crit and Haste are somewhat close, given that they both synergize well with mastery, especially on fights with very high raid damage where there is less chance to have a crit go to overheal. In other words, as long as Mastery takes priority, you could go either way for the other two stats and do just fine.

Charybdis · 01/10/13, 4:54 AM

Incoming nerf for the PVP set based on MMO-C datamining:

Item - Paladin PvP Set Holy 4P Bonus - Casting Flash of Light grants 1 charge of Holy Power. No longer works off of Word of Glory.

Tying it to FoL instead of WoG (or EF) seems like a decent way to reign in the PVE crowd using it for blanketing even after they fixed the DivPurp bug. As our most mana-intensive heal it's probably not a good idea to cast it often unless you really know what you're doing. My main question regarding it is: Will casting FoL on a Beacon target give 2 HoPo, or only 1?

As far as the PVE side goes, the tier bonuses at the moment are:
Item - Paladin T15 Holy 2P Bonus (New) Increases the healing done by your Daybreak ability by 50%.
Item - Paladin T15 Holy 4P Bonus (New) Increases the healing transferred to your Beacon of Light target by 20%.

The 2p helps on AoE, although I can't say how much it'll help.

The 4p looks great at first, but it might have some odd consequences. For example, it makes Holy Light even more efficient since the Beacon should get 120% of the original heal. For DL and FoL (and a select few other spells) it'll be 60% of the original if the math is how I think it'll be. Finally, with spells like HR, LoD, etc, I expect it'll be 18%.

And one other note from MMO-C's datamining: Repentance is being slowed down to a 1.7 second cast, up from 1.5 seconds. About the only reason I can think of for them doing that is to make it easier to interrupt.

monikasun88 · 01/11/13, 4:04 PM

Going off current numbers, if we were to maintain our play style the 2p is around a 1.5-2% increase in bonus simply by multiplying the percentage of healing daybreak is doing, ~3-4%. The 4P is an increase of ~3-4.5% based on BoL constituting 15-20% of our healing. Smart healing placement and beacon switching would probably increase these numbers. The set bonuses seem kind of weak and boring compared to the current 4p bonus.

purgex · 01/12/13, 2:03 AM

Originally Posted by JoeEgo

Until you don't get a Divine Purpose proc when you need the output for a burn phase like Force & Verve. Or you're in a 25 man and don't have the regen or procs to cover more of the raid, meaning the Druid, Holy Priest, and Monk eat your lunch and/or raid spot.

It is a niche setup and random is random. The perfect complement would be to reforge to Crit.

As the holy paladin with the world #1 rank on blade lord 25 heroic every week we've done it, you are wrong. Why would you not be spamming your AOE splash heal followed by your smart-healing flashlight during F&V?

Last month we kicked the other holy paladin in my guild after he was only at 150k healing on Tsulong heroic, where I was at 210k. There is NO excuse not to have the elite PvP 4-set by now, with each piece double upgraded. Every Tuesday you just need to swap every gem to 320 resilience and carry someone 10-0 for conq. People who try and use the PvE set now are the same people who dropped their Naxxaramas 4-set in favor of stats. No one cares about your gear score. Get over it.

You're not welcome to spew your arrogance here, and to the guy who wondered wether his raid-team would allow PvP gear; find a new raid team.

Pacer · 01/12/13, 6:39 AM

Originally Posted by purgex

As the holy paladin with the world #1 rank on blade lord 25 heroic every week we've done it, you are wrong. Why would you not be spamming your AOE splash heal followed by your smart-healing flashlight during F&V?

Last month we kicked the other holy paladin in my guild after he was only at 150k healing on Tsulong heroic, where I was at 210k. There is NO excuse not to have the elite PvP 4-set by now, with each piece double upgraded. Every Tuesday you just need to swap every gem to 320 resilience and carry someone 10-0 for conq. People who try and use the PvE set now are the same people who dropped their Naxxaramas 4-set in favor of stats. No one cares about your gear score. Get over it.

You're not welcome to spew your arrogance here, and to the guy who wondered wether his raid-team would allow PvP gear; find a new raid team.

While I agree with you im slightly confused, your profile states you are from the US but I checked the logs and the guy whos got rank 1 is from EU.

purgex · 01/12/13, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by Pacer

While I agree with you im slightly confused, your profile states you are from the US but I checked the logs and the guy whos got rank 1 is from EU.

Logs don't show up for a couple months for some guilds, and some are completely private (and the paladin on my profile is level 80). Also, I'd like to point out that you need stam gems for empress if you still have a lot of normal mode gear, otherwise you'll just be 1-shot. Holy paladins using the PvP set should start practicing with the PvE set the second they kill Sha on heroic though, because it's what you'll be using in the next patch when the PvP set is nerfed.

A question to the community, on the Shaman thread they found that if you exactly meet the haste breakpoint, you more often than not don't get the last bonus tick on a HOT because of lag, has anyone noticed this with EF?

Edit: One more, a note on stat priorities, since the goal is to cast holy radiance as much as possible, even in ten man, spirit should be the most valuable stat. In ten-mans Holy Radiance can heal just as much as EF as long as you use it on a target in the middle of a few allies. Since we cast holy light once or twice a fight on ten man ( only ever to increase the shield on a tank when the raid is at 100% health), spirit is more of a need for us. One can only hope for Wrath-style Holy-Light buffs, because if I heal the tank with 800k hp for 50k, his bar won't even move.

Erida · 01/15/13, 1:52 PM

RIP 4set pvp, you have served us well ! DP+EF+4setPVP, was the best thing a holy paladin could get. Healing is not about the numbers though. That combo though, didn't help pallies overcome their weaknesses. We had like nothing to use during heavy raid wide dmg. It's true, and anyone who says the opposite, is either lying or talking bs. On situations like that, the pve 2 and 4 set would help definitely more.

EF+DP worked pretty well, almost on every fight of the T14 content. I can't foresee what is going to work well on the T15 content, but I'm pretty sure that EF+DP should be the talents of choice on most fights.

Talking about T14 content:
There have been fights that mastery was overpowered (Spirit Kings HC), especially combined with the PVE set.
There have been fights that mastery was shit, like Tsulong and Garalon.
Even with taking into consideration those fights like Tsulong, mastery was definitely the stat to stack and reforge to. Theorycrafting was indicating a stat weight of 0.6 compared to 0.35 for crit and 0.3 for haste.

Haste breakpoint for the 13th tick of EF is definitely overestimated. There is no need to go for that. Current BiS gear, doesnt even bring close to that, so as to reach it with a couple reforges. Haste lowers the cast time and the gcd of spells, but who does that and on what extent when we are forced into melee range to crusader strike?

Critical is good. Is very good as long as you avoid overhealing. Gives IoL too. But cmon, you need like 600 crit rating for 1%. So you shouldnt go for that too. What could really change the value of crit was glyph of illumination. But hey, we need spirit, we stack spirit. The more spirit we stack the less the glyph worths. It is a glyph that is useless without the 4set pve. Fix it blizzard, or remove that glyph and give us something viable.

The new malevolent pvp 4 set, aint bad. I am not playing PTR, I can definitely feel the nerf, but it aint useless lol. Actually I feel it should be on par with T14 pve 4set, especially if Tower of Radiance and the 4set stack, and you get 2 HoPo from a single FoL (i think it is OP actually).

And lets compare the current 4set pvp (WOG/EF@3HoPOs) with the T14 pve 4set. The pve 4set, should provide more throughtput, but should also be less mana efficient. In terms of HPS the pve set is the best thing right now. But in terms of HPM the pvp set, is the king.

But the pve set, despite its steep mana requirements it has some bonuses. Holy shock on 4sec, means more IoL and more Daybreak. Means more Illuminating Healing. And you can still play LoD without regret ! The 2 set, is weak though. It merely makes any difference. Mana reduction should be around 30% to make it good!

Guys, do not get unhappy about the nerf. Start using the pve set, try to reduce your overhealing, and you will hardly notice any difference. And learn to use divine plea, haha!

The T15 now. I am gonna cry. The 2set, would be a good 2set bonus, if we already have T14 2&4 set passive on our pallies. So if i am not mistaken, it makes daybreak heal for 15% of the original Holy Shock. That's the +50%. LOL. It also puts 50% more shield. This is useless on 10man c'mon blizz.
The 4set, made me lol. +20% beacon. Ok, even if that +20% aint overheal, it is 4% free throughtput (which is low), and makes us feel even more regretfull when we need to direct heal the beacon target! At least blizzard should have the courtesy to make daybreak transfer through beacon, so the 4set would get an improved synergy with the 2set. The only nice boost I see here, doesnt affect 10man raiding much. 15% beacon transfers should now be 35%. That's good.

Someone playing on ptr, please cast Flash of Light on beacon target while you have the 4set pvp, and report back!

Charybdis · 01/17/13, 2:13 AM

Latest patch notes:

"Selfless Healer now boosts Flash of Light by 20/40/60% (down from 33/66/100%), and can be activated by Holy Shock (in addition to Judgment)."

The output was nerfed since they're giving Ret better Flash healing, but the fact that it works from Holy Shock now might make it worth looking at for some, especially if they want to tinker with the [Glyph of Lay on Hands]. Note that WoWhead still hasn't updated the output text apparently, but that's the Flash of Light glyph.