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Old 10/22/12, 2:15 PM   #76
Blackwater
Glass Joe
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Elune
Originally Posted by Charybdis View Post
You will almost never find a "best stat" for healers because the demands on a healer are typically far more volatile than for a DPS. Thanks to the way Blizz has tweaked our stats there aren't any clear winners other than maybe "enough spirit until you're happy, then whatever stat(s) you feel complement your playstyle and needs from there." It is far better to know what each stat does for you than to try and find "objective" rankings because there is no set style that will work for everyone all the time.
That is the best advice yet. I also had been away for 6+ months and was dreading the "OMG what has changed, etc etc etc".

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Old 10/22/12, 3:39 PM   #77
Archieewee
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Karazhan (EU)
Originally Posted by sephrosenjo View Post
My understanding of why we use glorious stats is due to int being more valuable than any secondary stat per single point. So, compare the two enchants, Mighty Spirit provides 120 more spirit than Glorious Stats, but Glorious Stats also provides intellect. Your choice is basically 120 spirit or 80 intellect. I couldn't find the current stat weights for throughput, but I am going to assume that they remain the same as Int>Haste>everything else. For raw throughput 80 Int is more valuable than 120 spirit but we do have to consider that healing is dynamic rather than static. If you are running out of mana and then people are dying get mighty spirit. If people are dying and you still have a decent chunk of mana you need better throughput so that points towards Glorious Stats.

I have a question of my own now: how are people handling running OoM? In cataclysm when I ran OoM I could recover 50-75% of my mana through clever use of Divine Plea lined up with Int procs and Mana Hymn and the other healers covering me for 5-10 seconds. I am finding now that when I run OoM its gone forever and is extremely hard get back up to even 100k mana. Assuming using divine plea on CD, and using efficient heals, and not overhealing a lot (my overhealing is down at 10-12%) what else can I do to either prolong my mana pool and/or be able to recover from heavy usage and OoM?
What fights are you having mana problems with?
Also I'd suggest you get rid of your [Thousand-Year Pickled Egg] and replace it with [Relic of Chi Ji], or [Price of Progress] if you can't afford DMC. And you need to get head with socket for [Revitalizing Primal Diamond].

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Old 10/22/12, 5:07 PM   #78
JoeEgo
Glass Joe
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by Archieewee View Post
What fights are you having mana problems with?
The first problem is sephrosenjo is not aware of the changes to mana regeneration mechanics for Mists. Until he understands the changes, such as how Intellect no longer affects Divine Plea, it is not worth responding to his posts except to link overview posts which describe the changes:
Mine
Derevka's

Or PM him your favorite.

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Old 10/24/12, 10:43 AM   #79
sephrosenjo
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by JoeEgo View Post
The first problem is sephrosenjo is not aware of the changes to mana regeneration mechanics for Mists. Until he understands the changes, such as how Intellect no longer affects Divine Plea, it is not worth responding to his posts except to link overview posts which describe the changes:
Mine
Derevka's

Or PM him your favorite.
I am in fact aware of those changes. My question is I understand none of my old tricks work due to the changes to the way mana functions and regenerates. Are there new tricks or am I limited to raw spirit (glyph of illumination stops being more mana at approximately 7-9k spirit depending on levels of crit according to your spreadsheet), DP, and trinket procs to regain my mana.

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Old 10/24/12, 2:18 PM   #80
Highmeh
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Exodar
Originally Posted by sephrosenjo View Post
I am in fact aware of those changes. My question is I understand none of my old tricks work due to the changes to the way mana functions and regenerates. Are there new tricks or am I limited to raw spirit (glyph of illumination stops being more mana at approximately 7-9k spirit depending on levels of crit according to your spreadsheet), DP, and trinket procs to regain my mana.
Short answer: No real tricks; learn to manage your mana better.

Long answer: Talents can help a bit with mana management. The level 75 talents can help a little bit with managing your mana in different situations because they all try to drive more of our free healing. In fights with constant amounts of moderate to high damage, Divine Purpose is very good since you'll essentially be able to get additional LoDs and WoGs over the course of a fight. In fights with controlled bursts/phases of damage, Holy Avenger or Sanctified Wrath may be better since they increase your holy power generation for their durations, leading to more free healing. There is also the [Glyph of Divinity], which in combination with Unbreakable Spirit can lead to 20% more mana on a long fight. And Sacred Shield or Clemency can ease up tank damage a bit (less healing required by the tank, less mana used).

Just remember to not look at these cooldowns/talents/glyphs from the vacuum of mana management; use them because it makes sense for that situation/fight, not because they can help you save a little mana.

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Old 10/25/12, 9:01 AM   #81
rinleezwins
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Burning Legion (EU)
We got 2 heroic version of Qin-xi's trinkets yesterday, we gave them to our shamans for obvious reason, but it made me do some math.

Taken that stat weight is 1 spirit = 0.8 int, these are the net stats values;

Heroic Qin-xi's 2386.8
Heroic Spirits of the Sun 2457
DMC Relic 2136
Jade Courtesan Figurine 1761.95 (on use, no spirit wasted)
Shado-Pan trinket 1762.2 (on use as well)

It looks like the proccing trinkets are totally on top even if one or two spirit procs are wasted at the beginning of a fight.

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Old 10/26/12, 2:38 AM   #82
Charybdis
Don Flamenco
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Area 52
Originally Posted by rinleezwins View Post
We got 2 heroic version of Qin-xi's trinkets yesterday, we gave them to our shamans for obvious reason, but it made me do some math.

Taken that stat weight is 1 spirit = 0.8 int, these are the net stats values;

Heroic Qin-xi's 2386.8
Heroic Spirits of the Sun 2457
DMC Relic 2136
Jade Courtesan Figurine 1761.95 (on use, no spirit wasted)
Shado-Pan trinket 1762.2 (on use as well)

It looks like the proccing trinkets are totally on top even if one or two spirit procs are wasted at the beginning of a fight.
As I've mentioned already in the thread, using stat weights for holy healing is typically counter-productive because the needs at any given time are different and can be handled differently by different people.

So that begs the question: How did you come by that stat weight? Do you feel confident that under any kind of arbitrary conditions it can be accurate?

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Old 10/26/12, 10:54 AM   #83
rinleezwins
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Burning Legion (EU)
Originally Posted by Charybdis View Post
As I've mentioned already in the thread, using stat weights for holy healing is typically counter-productive because the needs at any given time are different and can be handled differently by different people.

So that begs the question: How did you come by that stat weight? Do you feel confident that under any kind of arbitrary conditions it can be accurate?
I said "taken that" to avoid posts like yours. I thought it could be useful for people who value spirit over intellect overall.

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Old 10/29/12, 12:04 PM   #84
Poppis
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Daggerspine (EU)
Okay, now I'm a bit confused. In all holy paladin guides which I've read everybody say intellect is better than mastery and all the other secondary stats(I exclude spirit and only concentrate on troughput stats here).

Now on MMO-Champion healing guide was this calculation which I'm going to refer:
100 Mastery Rating: 0.00837 / (1+0.1995) = 0.00698, about 0.7% relative healing increase.
100 Crit Rating: 0.005568 / (1+0.1535) = 0.0048, about 0.48% relative healing increase.
100 Haste Rating: 0.0078 / (1+0.144) = 0.0068, about 0.68% relative hps increase.
100 Spellpower: 100 / (10180 + 9000) = 0.0052, about 0.52% relative healing increase.

Okay. That's fine. However, compared to Cataclysm model 1 int gives only 1 sp(in Cata it was 2 I think) it seems that mastery is better than int, which only gives us spell power and no mana regenration anymore. Even if you take into account buffs to int(5% from armor, 10% from
mage buff and 5% from kings/marks) relative troughtput value of int is calculated in other post which describes Holy Paladin trinket weights(also in MMO-Champion):

100 Intellect = 121 Spellpower : 0,0052x1,21= 0,0063, about 0.63 relative healing increase,
making it worse than mastery rating and haste rating per point.

Now, especially when secondary stats give double the value in gems than main stat should we gem pure mastery? I understand that mastery doesn't affect on all our spells and doesn't transfer to beacon, but is it enough to overcome the difference(0.7 vs. 0.63 relative healing) and if we take into account values of gems (320 mastery vs. 160 int).

Can someone explain this? Maybe the Beacon is the key here?

EDIT: Or is crit from int enough to push int before mastery in stat values?

Last edited by Poppis : 10/29/12 at 12:13 PM.

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Old 10/29/12, 2:05 PM   #85
Charybdis
Don Flamenco
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Area 52
Keep in mind spirit can also translate into throughput via using DL instead of HL more often, and that's one of the things Blizzard will balance around in later tiers actually.

Beacon is a key point to consider for stats because of different playstyles and needs. If you're indirectly healing the Beacon through things like HL then mastery's value might decrease because you're not shielding the Beacon target. However, if you're directly healing (especially with FoL or DL and getting the extra HoPo) and such then mastery is very valuable since that target is pretty well guaranteed to be taking heavy damage if you're using that option.

In some respects crit and haste might be considered more valuable if indirectly healing with Beacon because the extra healing from crit means extra healing on the Beacon, and of course faster casts mean faster healing and potentially more healing if you squeeze more casts into a certain time period.

Intellect simply adds numbers. Depending on the spell cast it might be worth more than secondary stats, but it can also be worth less especially when gems come into play. It will entirely depend on the player's needs though, and those needs can't be quantified with a blanket stat weight like how DPS and even tanks do because there is no objective way to deal with everything.

One of the things I'd like to do is compile a list of strategies for each boss which should help determine which stats are best for which strategy, and then maybe average them to say "generally X is the way to gear because it provides the best all around healing for these fights," and then of course trinkets and strategy change can be used for major fights that don't quite fit into that paradigm.

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Old 11/03/12, 6:52 PM   #86
Healadà n
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Neptulon (EU)
Originally Posted by Charybdis View Post
One of the things I'd like to do is compile a list of strategies for each boss which should help determine which stats are best for which strategy
I'd like to support that idea, since, imo, it is kinda handy to have at least something to keep in mind, as opposed to practically nothing right now...
Eventhough fights vary a lot and therefor there can't really be any stat weights as we had before, it still is nice to have some sort of a guide what things to keep in mind for which play style and encounter.

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Old 11/04/12, 2:03 PM   #87
Charybdis
Don Flamenco
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Area 52
Originally Posted by Healad� n View Post
I'd like to support that idea, since, imo, it is kinda handy to have at least something to keep in mind, as opposed to practically nothing right now...
Eventhough fights vary a lot and therefor there can't really be any stat weights as we had before, it still is nice to have some sort of a guide what things to keep in mind for which play style and encounter.
There is the potential for gimmick fights where certain stats will be really good or absolutely terrible. For example, Mastery during the Baleroc fight in Firelands was mostly crap because our shield is capped by our health (1/3 of our max to be exact) so when healing the tank extra mastery rating became practically worthless since it capped due to the increased healing and tank health.

While we're here I might as well add one of the recent patch notes:
Holy's T14 4p has been buffed to take 2 seconds off Holy Shock's CD instead of 1.

This changes it to being able to be cast every 4 seconds, or 15 times a minute, which will change whether [Glyph of Holy Light] (It's Glyph of Illumination. Wowhead hasn't fixed the link) will have any value to us at appropriate Spirit levels. Since Highmeh mentioned how Joe Ego did the math on it at MoP Mana Regen: Theorycrafting Paladins’ Options | Leveling Holy, I figured I'd pick his brain before I dove into the full math and made my own spreadsheet on how the glyph interacts with the set bonus since duplicating work isn't efficient here.

Edit: It seems Joe is also on these boards. In that case, would you care to chime in with your findings, assuming you've plugged in the numbers for the 4p change?

Something else to think about with regards to HS and the glyph: Sanctified Wrath. With 4p T14 we're looking at HS being on a 1 or 2 second CD (depending on how Blizz has chosen to stack the effects) for 30 seconds every 3 minutes. Combine this with Divine Favor and we're looking at a nice chunk of mana returned during that time.

Last edited by Charybdis : 11/04/12 at 5:02 PM.

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Old 11/05/12, 12:43 AM   #88
bromli
Von Kaiser
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Korgath
Originally Posted by Poppis View Post
Okay, now I'm a bit confused. In all holy paladin guides which I've read everybody say intellect is better than mastery and all the other secondary stats(I exclude spirit and only concentrate on troughput stats here).

Now on MMO-Champion healing guide was this calculation which I'm going to refer:
100 Mastery Rating: 0.00837 / (1+0.1995) = 0.00698, about 0.7% relative healing increase.
100 Crit Rating: 0.005568 / (1+0.1535) = 0.0048, about 0.48% relative healing increase.
100 Haste Rating: 0.0078 / (1+0.144) = 0.0068, about 0.68% relative hps increase.
100 Spellpower: 100 / (10180 + 9000) = 0.0052, about 0.52% relative healing increase.

Okay. That's fine. However, compared to Cataclysm model 1 int gives only 1 sp(in Cata it was 2 I think) it seems that mastery is better than int, which only gives us spell power and no mana regenration anymore. Even if you take into account buffs to int(5% from armor, 10% from
mage buff and 5% from kings/marks) relative troughtput value of int is calculated in other post which describes Holy Paladin trinket weights(also in MMO-Champion):

100 Intellect = 121 Spellpower : 0,0052x1,21= 0,0063, about 0.63 relative healing increase,
making it worse than mastery rating and haste rating per point.

Now, especially when secondary stats give double the value in gems than main stat should we gem pure mastery? I understand that mastery doesn't affect on all our spells and doesn't transfer to beacon, but is it enough to overcome the difference(0.7 vs. 0.63 relative healing) and if we take into account values of gems (320 mastery vs. 160 int).

Can someone explain this? Maybe the Beacon is the key here?

EDIT: Or is crit from int enough to push int before mastery in stat values?
First off, 1 int gives about 24% as much crit% as 1 crit, pushing int ahead of mastery on your chart.

Secondly, mastery and haste have notable limitations in practice. For mastery to achieve 100% effectiveness, the target must be in need of healing and also be guaranteed to take further damage in the next few seconds. Haste costs mana. Int can contribute to overhealing, but it's a predictable increase in healing that hasn't been problematic since ICC.

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Old 11/05/12, 7:02 AM   #89
JoeEgo
Glass Joe
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by Charybdis View Post
Edit: It seems Joe is also on these boards. In that case, would you care to chime in with your findings, assuming you've plugged in the numbers for the 4p change?
I'm considering creating some silly "Joe Ego materializes from the mists" introduction...

I've updated my spreadsheet to account for higher mana values (up to 25,000) and up to 15 Shocks per minute.

On the one hand, the Glyph can look really good at high Shock cast rates. Plus, without even gearing for extra Crit, 50% is not unreasonable after accounting for the raid buff and Shock's bonus. The potential for 15 casts per minute, ignoring Sanctified Wrath, is very impressive.

On the other hand, the PTR t14 4-piece bonus gets us maybe 2 extra Shocks during 20 seconds of Avenging Wrath. Sanctified Wrath must then be used to enhance regeneration, but we won't be able to cast any other spells for 30 seconds if we assume it results in a 2 second cooldown when stacked with the t14 4-piece bonus. I don't think we would even be able to cast WoG/EF or LoD in between. Then again, we could get about 12 extra Shocks.

Going with a 50% Crit rate, that's approximately 3,000 * 6 = 18,000 additional mana every 3 minutes or 500 Mp5. Unglyphed, 1,000 Sprit gives over 560 Mp5. So if we use my spreadsheet to find a cutoff then will see that t14 4-piece + Sanctified Wrath would allow us to move our cutoff nearly 1,000 Spirit higher.

For example, assuming 8 Shocks per minute with 50% crit rate means a cutoff of about 8,859 Spririt. The additional 500 Mp5 from a 30 second regen cycle of pure Holy Shock casts moves that cutoff to about 9,800. If I could increase my casts per minute to 9 then my cutoff moves to 9,967 which shows how my normal cast rate has a larger effect than the tier or talent bonuses. I would rather use a 1,000 Spirit flask for a larger mana return with no maintenance and have Avenging Wrath available for use as an output cooldown.

TL;DR: Glyph of Illumination is still very dependent on casting Shock frequently. The t14 4-piece is only a regen benefit when talenting Sanctified Wrath, using AW for regen instead of output, and chain casting Shock for 30 seconds at a time - all for an average of 500 Mp5 or less than 1,000 equivalent Spirit.

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Old 11/05/12, 8:51 AM   #90
Pacer
Glass Joe
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Alonsus (EU)
I cant believe no one has mentioned the pvp 4 set bonus yet. The top logs on garalon makes use of the pvp 4 set both on 10 and 25 man. It basically means that no matter how many people you have to heal this set will be better. Infact the set is so good that 4 pieces of blues (ilvl 458) is going to be about equal to the T14 heroic set.

Number 1, 10 man: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Number 2, 10 man: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Number 1, 25 man: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

The 25 man log is a person from my guild, if you check out the log you can see that I also ranked number 6 by just using EF without the pvp 4 set. One might argue that the other person in my guild is just so much better than me but if you look back a whole month of logs you will see that I previously out healed him on 90% of all kills however now that he has the pvp set he does arround 15% more healing than myself.

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