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Old 11/05/12, 1:34 PM   #91
Charybdis
Don Flamenco
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Area 52
We don't generally discuss the PVP sets, but looking at the bonuses themselves does raise some interesting questions since PVP itemization is simply added and not in place of the typical stats.

2p: Increase the damage and healing of Holy Shock by 10%
4p: When you cast Word of Glory using 3 Holy Power, you gain 1 Holy Power.
Gloves: Increases the critical effect chance of Flash of Light by 2%.

The extra HoPo, HS healing, and potentially FoL healing could add up to a fair chunk of extra throughput. The catch is that throughput is not necessarily our primary goal, thus WoL parses may not be relevant in the grand scheme of things.

I'm also not convinced the 458 PVP set would be equal to the 509 heroic PVE. The sheer difference of stats will have a very big impact on healing, and probably more so than the set bonuses. We'll have to wait and see how things compare once people get the heroic tier gear and post logs.

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Old 11/05/12, 7:27 PM   #92
Bananahammoc
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Garithos
Originally Posted by Charybdis View Post
I'm also not convinced the 458 PVP set would be equal to the 509 heroic PVE. The sheer difference of stats will have a very big impact on healing, and probably more so than the set bonuses. We'll have to wait and see how things compare once people get the heroic tier gear and post logs.
I do hope this is a joke. I can assure you that if you do the math you'll find a ridiculously large difference between 458 PvP vs 509 heroic PvE gear, in every respect, in favor of the 509 gear. HR mana cost reduction on PvE 2-set is pretty decent over the course of a fight. The HS CD reduction (which will become a 2 second reduction) is a good gain for HP gen, although it might not provide as much HP in a given period of time if you get lucky with DivPurp.

Having said that, if your raid isn't all that great (like mine) I'm sure the conquest set will do nicely until you get more reg/heroic raid gear.

Also 2% crit on FoL is a pretty small throughput gain in PvE situations. I hope FoL doesn't make up enough of your healing over a fight to be much.

Last edited by Bananahammoc : 11/05/12 at 8:09 PM.

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Old 11/05/12, 8:23 PM   #93
Pacer
Glass Joe
 
Pacer's Avatar
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Alonsus (EU)
Originally Posted by Bananahammoc View Post
I do hope this is a joke. I can assure you that if you do the math you'll find a ridiculously large difference between 458 PvP vs 509 heroic PvE gear, in every respect, in favor of the 509 gear. HR mana cost reduction on PvE 2-set is huge over the course of a fight, and in most fights we do use a decent amount of HR. The HS CD reduction (which will become a 2 second reduction) is a huge gain for HP gen, at least equal to the 4-set of PvP in the case that you use EG only.

Having said that, if your raid isn't all that great (or if your luck is bad) I'm sure the conquest set will do nicely until you get more reg/heroic raid gear.

Also 2% crit on FoL is a pretty small throughput gain in PvE situations. I hope FoL doesn't make up enough of your healing over a fight to be much.
Refer to my post a page back to see some numbers. Right now im seeing higher numbers (atleast 15% higher) with 4 pieces of the blue pvp set. The other items I could be using instead are ilvl 496 gloves, 496 chest, 489 head and 463 shoulders.

Here is a breakdown of the stats im seeing before and after equipping the blue pvp 4 set:
Spell Power 21522 - 20247 = lost 1275
Haste 2382 - 2081 = lost 301
Crit 1614 - 1341 = lost 273
Mastery 4137 - 4601 = gained 464
Sprit 9756 - 8900 = lost 856

Despite loosing more than 2000 of our two most important stats I am seeing much much higher numbers. Obviously 10% mana reduction on HR is a pretty big deal but in the long run it will account for a 3-4% healing increase at best. The 4 set bonus will of couse also increase the healing done from EF but it will still be no where near the amount of healing the pvp 4 set produces.

In the end I would take heroic T14 over the blue pvp set but I would not take it over the epic pvp set.

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Old 11/07/12, 7:15 PM   #94
eirohir
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Tarren Mill (EU)
I would like to know how many paladins are going for the 12.5% haste bracket, I find my cast times to be very slow and they tend to overheal by the time they are cast. My guild mates tell me that it goes to absorbs and still count as healing, but only 33% of the heal at my current mastery level.

I am really struggling to get a handle on any way to do effective healing, and even attempting to pre-heal with 5 other healers doing the same thing, I simply cannot get over 30k hps, when I see the other pally healer in my team doing 50k+ it makes me think I have missed something very basic about holy pally healing.

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Old 11/08/12, 8:16 AM   #95
Erida
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Warrior
 
Zenedar (EU)
Originally Posted by eirohir View Post
I am really struggling to get a handle on any way to do effective healing, and even attempting to pre-heal with 5 other healers doing the same thing, I simply cannot get over 30k hps, when I see the other pally healer in my team doing 50k+ it makes me think I have missed something very basic about holy pally healing.
Get the blue pvp 4 set. It is extremely overpowered no matter the stats. It was like 5 times better than the old T14 4set (pre-boost), and it is still much much better after the boost. Do not care for the lost stats, you will save tons of mana and your throutput will skyrocket. Moreover the +10% Holy Shock, is very nice, but the game breaking deal is the 4 set.

Spec Eternal flame + Divine Purpose, and use it only with 3HoPo and DP procs. Avoid using Light of Dawn, because in most cases it will simply heal less. Use LoD only if it is necessary. So stick to EF as much as possible.

Rest -> Holy Shock on CD, and crusader strike, when you are in dire need of some HoPo. CS is dangerous, cause SoI gives zero hit chance and no expertise. Use it wisely,and profit for the extra holy power charge.
Pay attention to the extra infusion of light procs. Avoid casting spells without IoL procs. Use your procs mostly for Holy Radiance, for the extra holy power. If you need specific healing, then use your single target casting heals , but in general try to avoid them.

Learn the times that the raid is going to take zero or minor dmg, and use Divine Plea.

Take advantage of the Beacon and the Glyph of the innocent as much as possible. Avoid healing the beacon target directly, so a percentage of your heal also heals the tank. Or if you need some HoPo direct heal the tank with flash of light if no IoL proc is up, or Divine Light if IoL is up. Try prioritize others to receive your eternal flame, instead of yourself. So you will get the bonus from the Glyph.

Spirit > Intellect > Mastery > Haste > Crit
Gem with 3 kind of gems: Pure spirit, intellect + spirit and spirit + mastery.

Last edited by Erida : 11/08/12 at 11:11 AM.

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Old 11/08/12, 1:19 PM   #96
eirohir
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Tarren Mill (EU)
Thanks for the nice reply, very informative. However I am not sure pvp sets will be allowed in my specific raid team, I will ask.

I see you have haste as a very low priority stat, as do a lot of other people, but with a 2.3 sec cast time, I find that almost all my healing goes to the overheal meter instead of the ehps meters, the mastery shield is what it is, but I find myself wishing that at least 50% of my cast heal would be effective, so I could rise up the hps done to an acceptable level.

would it be acceptable to dump 4-5% mastery 34.1% down to 29.1% in favor of haste, just to increase casting time by 0.2 - 0.3 seconds, or would the gain be negligible?

Last edited by eirohir : 11/08/12 at 1:20 PM. Reason: grammar and spelling

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Old 11/09/12, 3:32 AM   #97
Erida
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Warrior
 
Zenedar (EU)
Do not care about haste. You should mostly cast only under the Infusion of Light proc. Stack as much mastery as possible. You should be healing with Eternal Flame. The more 3HoPo EF, the more gain from the 4set. 30+% of all your heals should be Eternal Flame. At the moment, holy paladins cannot cast efficiently.

If you have free time between the Holy Shock, Crusader Strike, Eternal Flame spamming, then go ahead and cast Holy Radiance, or FoL/DL on the beacon target. If it is going to be overheal, at least you ll get some absorb and 1 charge of HoPo.

I cannot see the reason why your raid leader will not allow you to equip the pvp set. Holy Paladins are an exception to this general rule. We do not use pvp gear because we dont have decent pve gear. We use pvp gear, to make our class competitive and on par with the other healers.

And some QQ:

[QQ_mode=1]]
I do not like using pvp items. I dont like pvp at all. I only like pve and I am forced in farming Honor/Conquest Points.

Holy Paladin is the only healer that has to use pvp 4set, to compete with other classes at World Of Logs rankings.
If I am not missing something, the 4set should be nerfed and our class should get a boost. I would change the pvp 4 set to something more pvp specific, and I would give the 4set effect passive to Holy paladins. If that was too much i would do some other changes.

I'd like to see improved HoPo generation. This can easily be done, if Crusader Strike goes on spell hit chance, and Seal of Insight gets some synergy with Crusader Strike. Or/And lower CS mana cost. We also need an extra proc that resets the cooldown of Holy Shock (like Cataclysm).
[QQ_mode=0]

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Old 11/09/12, 12:23 PM   #98
eirohir
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Tarren Mill (EU)
Ok I will take that advice to heart, I know you do not need to reply to my posts, and just to say a thank you for your replies, In Heart of fear last time out, I was out healing the other paladin in our group, and a few people commented on the dramatic improvement in my holy paladin. So thank you very much.

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Old 11/10/12, 8:03 AM   #99
Slt
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Burning Legion (EU)
At last raid (Garalon) I picked Holy Prism from 90lvl tier. Is my skada wrong or it's bugged somehow cus few Holy Prism made 0 heal :< Target of spell was boss, so party should have received some heals, am I right ?

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Old 11/10/12, 9:31 AM   #100
Rrui
Von Kaiser
 
Rrui's Avatar
 
Tauren Paladin
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Originally Posted by Slt View Post
At last raid (Garalon) I picked Holy Prism from 90lvl tier. Is my skada wrong or it's bugged somehow cus few Holy Prism made 0 heal :< Target of spell was boss, so party should have received some heals, am I right ?
The range is only 15 yds from the boss and that room is pretty big and the distance from the bosses actual hit box and the hit box of the leg is also pretty big. You should use it on the leg the raid is dpsing, not the body of the boss.

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Old 11/10/12, 9:33 AM   #101
cremor
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Blackmoore (EU)
Maybe it was all overheal. Holy Prism is not a smart heal. It can pick 5 full health targets even if some low health targets are in range. It might even pick something like 5 ghuls from a DK's Army of the Dead.

edit: Although Rrui's explanation also makes sense.

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Old 11/11/12, 12:24 AM   #102
Bananahammoc
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Garithos
Originally Posted by Slt View Post
At last raid (Garalon) I picked Holy Prism from 90lvl tier. Is my skada wrong or it's bugged somehow cus few Holy Prism made 0 heal :< Target of spell was boss, so party should have received some heals, am I right ?
I can confirm that Holy Prism will not heal if the boss is targeted, or at least it didn't the few times I used it on the boss in LFR earlier this week (my raid isn't good enough to have made it that far /cry). If you use an add-on such as MSBT (you should!) you can easily tell whether or not it worked.

I take back everything I said about the PvP 4-set. I set aside my tier legs and 489 rep chest for the PvP 4-set and ranked #1 on Elegon 10m (reg), in mediocre gear, without even realizing I was doing it. However, once the buff to 4-piece PvE is in, perhaps we will find use for at least the 2-set (and therefore the 4-set) if HR is used so often that the mana savings from 2-set+stats+2 sec cd reduc on HS (and therefore more Daybreak) will offset the huge gains of the PvP 4-set. That or they'll nerf the PvP 4-set to occur only once every X secs.

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Old 11/13/12, 1:57 AM   #103
Poppis
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Daggerspine (EU)
About PVP set and eternal flame. I know it pulls much higher numbers than anything else but I'm still not too excited about it. Of course if you need numbers like I would imagine on Garalon HC then it is nice but in general I think not. Or at least it greatly depends on your healing setup.

I'm usually healing in 10 mans with monk and either druid or shaman. If all my time goes to acquire holy power and hot everything who does the spot healing, which is always needed? At least on Grand Empress at HoF I highly doubt in P2 that tanks would stay alive without serious healing and EF is not enough. Of course if you're running with other holy pala or maybe shaman and disc priest then it might be totally different.

Like I said, EF blanketing offers bigger numbers with PVP set, but is it the numbers that matters? Sometimes yes, usually I think not. It's more important to save THE person that is dying than healing 4 others with 50% health. What is your opinion on this matter?

EDIT: I totally missed previous post which is exactly what I was aiming for. Btw, there are lots of other uses for DA. Amber-Shaper use it in P3 for splash. In Grand Empress use it when you have Cry of Terror without the need to go into resonance field / there are no resonance field. Almost all bosses have uses for it.

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Old 11/13/12, 2:56 AM   #104
PawsomeOZ
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Druid
 
Ner'zhul
All those numbers are effective healing which allows other healers to spend less mana and 20-30 seconds later in the encounter those targets have more health and are less likely to die, there's also nothing stopping you from using multiple EF on the tank, it heals for a lot and costs no mana.

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Old 11/13/12, 12:14 PM   #105
Charybdis
Don Flamenco
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Area 52
Eternal Flame's healing isn't always the best when it comes to tank healing since it's a HoT and burst happens in a much shorter time frame where HoTs aren't generally as effective. Taking advantage of ToR to get HoPo and do multiple EF on the tank can certainly work though, but if you want your primary role to be tank healer then going Sacred Shield might be better. Work with your other healers to see whether you have a good balance of tank and raid healing and go from there with what's most comfortable to all of you.

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