Holy Moley - Page 9

Charybdis · 11/27/12, 2:37 PM

Thanks to Theck's work at Haste Breakpoints for Tankadins | Sacred Duty I've compiled a haste breakpoint list here for Sacred Shield and Eternal Flame ticks that is more relevant to Holy.

The first thing to note with Sacred Shield is the haste point for the 7th tick with SoI and the 5% raid buff is 5336 which might be doable. It increases to 5619 during bloodlust to get the 9th tick. If you don't have the raid buff then the 7th tick is 7728 while during BL the 9th is 8025, which are probably too high for most.

With Eternal Flame the 13th tick assuming SoI and RB is 3496 haste while the 14th tick is 7176, which I probably wouldn't recommend getting to until later gear levels if you really like haste. Adding bloodlust onto SoI and RB gives us 4204 for a 17th tick and 7034 for an 18th. If you don't have the raid buff the 13th tick for EF is 5793 while the 14th is 9660. The 13th might work, but certainly not the 14th if you don't have almost every piece with haste on it (which you shouldn't). With SoI and BL the 16th tick is 3567, 14th is 6539, and 15th is 9511. The 13th is easy in that circumstance, the 14th possibly beyond reach depending on your gear, and the 15 is almost certainly a no.

SS breakpoints probably aren't worth gearing for and should be incidental as you gear up, though reforging a couple pieces to get to 5619 shouldn't be too much of a problem. EF is a different story, especially if you're using the 4p PVP set since EF will be a large part of your healing. 4204 is probably your best bet if you have the raid buff available.

kadas · 11/27/12, 3:35 PM

I have a bad idea I would like to be talked out of.

I two heal most fights (10m Normal) with a disc priests, it seems her bubbles/pws/spirit shell largely negate the effects of my mastery (which I'm currently stacking). I am having enough trouble managing mana with no haste so couldn't imagine gearing for it right now. I also don't pvp so no 4 set. That leaves...

Crit?
So the idea is to gear Int>Spi>Crit>Haste>Mastery.
Glyph Flash of Light and beacon, macro-ing beacon to flash for on-demand Holy Power.
Glyph Illumination and spec Sanctified Wrath and abuse high crit with SW to regen mana and build up Holy Power
And finally Eternal Flame as that talent benefits from Crit more than the others and the EF hots would theoretically be jumping to a person in need of heals more frequently...

I should note that I have the PvE 2pc that makes Radiance (HR likes crit, right?) a bit cheaper, but maybe this would be a better idea with the lower cd on Shock with the 4p.

The standard "crit is bad" argument is that it is uncontrollable over-heal, but maybe using a style that makes little use of Divine Light but moderate use of HR and EF (which are less likely to overheal; the former being relatively small heals and the latter being instant). oh and let's throw in more Infusion of Light procs for good measure!

So I'm hoping that people with a better grasp of math/ better understanding of the class could explain exactly why this is a bad idea, how bad an idea it is, etc.

purgex · 11/27/12, 4:09 PM

Originally Posted by kadas

I have a bad idea I would like to be talked out of.

I two heal most fights (10m Normal) with a disc priests, it seems her bubbles/pws/spirit shell largely negate the effects of my mastery (which I'm currently stacking). I am having enough trouble managing mana with no haste so couldn't imagine gearing for it right now. I also don't pvp so no 4 set. That leaves...

Crit?
So the idea is to gear Int>Spi>Crit>Haste>Mastery.
Glyph Flash of Light and beacon, macro-ing beacon to flash for on-demand Holy Power.
Glyph Illumination and spec Sanctified Wrath and abuse high crit with SW to regen mana and build up Holy Power
And finally Eternal Flame as that talent benefits from Crit more than the others and the EF hots would theoretically be jumping to a person in need of heals more frequently...

I should note that I have the PvE 2pc that makes Radiance (HR likes crit, right?) a bit cheaper, but maybe this would be a better idea with the lower cd on Shock with the 4p.

The standard "crit is bad" argument is that it is uncontrollable over-heal, but maybe using a style that makes little use of Divine Light but moderate use of HR and EF (which are less likely to overheal; the former being relatively small heals and the latter being instant). oh and let's throw in more Infusion of Light procs for good measure!

So I'm hoping that people with a better grasp of math/ better understanding of the class could explain exactly why this is a bad idea, how bad an idea it is, etc.

In your situation I would suggest doing grinding up honor and getting your 4-set bonus, Continue gearing for Mastery and Crit > haste. Remember that (at least on my gear), with such little crit, gearing for crit does not make much of a difference at all. If I reforge to crit, I only gain ~4% crit, but with holy shock spam I already crit half the time, so I continue gearing INT > spirit > mastery > haste >> crit to help the cast-time of Holy Radience when CS and HS are on cooldown. Item - Paladin PvP Set Holy 4P Bonus - Spell - World of Warcraft (PvP 4pc) is really worth it with a Priest.

Poppis · 11/28/12, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by purgex

In your situation I would suggest doing grinding up honor and getting your 4-set bonus, Continue gearing for Mastery and Crit > haste. Remember that (at least on my gear), with such little crit, gearing for crit does not make much of a difference at all. If I reforge to crit, I only gain ~4% crit, but with holy shock spam I already crit half the time, so I continue gearing INT > spirit > mastery > haste >> crit to help the cast-time of Holy Radience when CS and HS are on cooldown. Item - Paladin PvP Set Holy 4P Bonus - Spell - World of Warcraft (PvP 4pc) is really worth it with a Priest.

This is something I would recommend trying also. However, patch 5.1 nerfed the usage of PVP set due to Divine Purpose procs no longer granting extra HP. Still I assume that in your situation at least trying this method would be beneficial.

Charybdis · 11/28/12, 1:33 AM

Originally Posted by Poppis

This is something I would recommend trying also. However, patch 5.1 nerfed the usage of PVP set due to Divine Purpose procs no longer granting extra HP. Still I assume that in your situation at least trying this method would be beneficial.

Based on searching around the official WoW forums and MMO-Champ I can reasonably confirm this. It doesn't mean the PVP gear is entirely invalidated of course, but I'd expect it's enough to make people doing normals and heroics want to go for the PVE tier gear unless they've really gotten into the groove of maximizing the bonuses.

Erida · 11/28/12, 5:54 AM

I cannot be sure how big the nerf is. I have not tested it in game yet, but my low quality mathematics, foresee a worst case scenario of 3% throughtput decrease. I made my calculation with an average 18% DP proc chance.

So lets discuss, if there is going to be a huge different in our healing duty post nerf.

We got +5% LoD (useless during EF blanketing playstyle), and Holy Prism fix (now heals 5 most injured). So those few paladins that used Holy Prism prenerf (instead of Light's Hammer) , are going to see 1.5% throuthput decrease (worst case scenario).

There have been times that DP was doing crazy procc streaks, while paired with low raid or zero raid dmg, and we were just overhealing and shielding people up. Sometimes we did not even receive our 1hopo from the 4set pvp during DP procs, because we were already at 5 HoPo and we had 3+ DP procs already.

It is definitely a nerf. But some of us will not even realize it. And there comes the other thing, the bright side of 5.1: Item upgrades!
Prepatch, you had to stick with that 458 gear, or the 483 epic.
Now we have the option to upgrade it from 458->466 ! And epics from 483->491!

Personally I'll stick to my pvp set, and I may upgrade it. Moreover, T14 pieces seem more tasty now.

Avsek · 11/28/12, 9:42 AM

hotfixes:

Fixed an issue that could cause Illuminated Healing to apply absorption shields when no healing was generated.

Can someone explain what does this exactly mean? Absorption shields are no longer applied by overhealing?

Pacer · 11/28/12, 3:40 PM

Originally Posted by Avsek

hotfixes:

Can someone explain what does this exactly mean? Absorption shields are no longer applied by overhealing?

I'm not sure what it means, I can still stack illuminated healing on myself before a fight.

Highmeh · 11/28/12, 6:04 PM

Originally Posted by Avsek

hotfixes:

Can someone explain what does this exactly mean? Absorption shields are no longer applied by overhealing?

Originally Posted by Pacer

I'm not sure what it means, I can still stack illuminated healing on myself before a fight.

I *think* it was to do with situations where a target has healing absorption/immunity. If no healing can be done, then no shield should be produced.

Highmeh · 11/29/12, 9:40 AM

Originally Posted by Poppis

This is something I would recommend trying also. However, patch 5.1 nerfed the usage of PVP set due to Divine Purpose procs no longer granting extra HP. Still I assume that in your situation at least trying this method would be beneficial.

I was noticing this morning (over the course of about an hour or so, as both Protection and Holy) that I am no longer getting any strings of Divine Purpose procs. This makes me think the PvP 4pc change was not just a nerf to that bonus specifically, but rather a "fix" (though I'm sure most people will read "nerf") to Divine Purpose so it no longer triggers off itself so that casting a holy power-consuming ability will not trigger a proc (like DP or PvP 4pc) unless the holy power is actually spent. This would explain the lack of DP strings and PvP 4pc nerf.

Can someone test/verify this?

Edit: Cleared up my explanation of what I think I am observing. I've had one guild member claim he got strings of DP yesterday, but I don't know if this was before or after the hot fixes/realm restart.

Edit 2: DP procs are still chaining as before--it just took me a long while to see one. Nothing to see here. :P

Erida · 11/29/12, 4:13 PM

my first impressions post patch.:

the nerf is much bigger than i thought. However the pvp set is still really strong. So as to recover from the flat throughtput impact we need loads more spirit. Divine purpose proc chance is not affected, and it cas still chain procc giving nice streaks just like prepatch.

Haven't still noticed anything about illuminated healing. Holy prism is working as intended , and is pretty good.

We can counteract the nerf. More crusader strike, more radiance and more holy shocks on cooldown. Especially during divine purpsose procs. Just do not forget holy shocks on cd!!!

Update:

I have made wrong calculations before. The nerf is around minus 5% throughtput. To get our throughtput passively back we need serious amounts of mana regen, around 20% more spirit! We also need to be extra careful with crusader strike and holy shock on cd. If we translate the nerf to something else, we would see something like "All healing spells cost 16+% more mana!" And I thought monk's 10% mana cost nerf was really hard!

Upgrade your MP5 trinkets (especially DMC), go for the valor head and rest pvp 4set, spirit flask and food, and play divine plea, mana tide, divine hymn on cd. Mana potions FTW

It is time we checked Glyph of Illumination once again!

Rrui · 12/01/12, 5:38 AM

Has anyone done the maths on the Glyph of Illumination with the Tier 14 four set bonus?

Now Holy Shock is on a 4s cooldown, this could become viable. I'm sat at just over 10.5k spirit unbuffed with both the Darkmoon (2/2 upgraded) and Tsulong spirit proc trinkets, this could be enough base regen to go for it I'm feeling, but would love to see the raw "patchwerk" maths on it.

Erida · 12/01/12, 7:01 AM

MoP Mana Regen: Theorycrafting Paladins’ Options | Leveling Holy

The author provides a spreadsheet, but i don't know if the calculations are still valid or outdated.
Judging from the calculations, the glyph needs the pve 4set to become viable. The glyph seems useless for those who use the pvp set.

Cudi · 12/01/12, 12:52 PM

I really dont know if i should still use the pvp set after the patch... I did not tried my pve set cause i only got the 2set pieces yet. Did someone who used the 4pvp´s before the nerf, tried his t14 and got some advice which one feels better? Would be great to hear about that...

greets guys

*edit: I tried the pvp gear tonight and it is still really strong. I stacked spirit gems, food, flasks etc and it worked really well.

JoeEgo · 12/01/12, 12:53 PM

The calculations are valid as long as Blizzard doesn't change basic mana mechanics or the glyph. I updated the note on the Shocks per Minute field regarding the maximum with 4pc t14 (now 15), but that wasn't necessary to use the calculations.

Here is a direct link to the sheet. There is also a second tab which lets you see multiple Spirit equivalencies at a glance. (Dec 9 edit: Fixed the sheet to finally be accessible to people. Make your own copy to do edits with your own stats.)

Remember:

Glyph viability is highly dependent on Shocks per Minute. Getting up to even 8 per minute requires a lot of effort. It is easy to evaluate your fight logs to determine your actual performance. Your cast rate is likely lower than you had thought.
As your Spirit increases you may also find your cast rate decreasing as you spend more time casting less efficient spells.
Don't forget to account for all raid buffs in your calculations (Relic of Chi-Ji, flask, food, averaged procs from trinkets & Jade Spirit, etc).
Similarly, account for your buffed Crit % for Holy Shock during fights.

One last thing: if you are using or want to use the spreadsheet and you're having issues please send a PM. I'd like to figure out how to get around any issues.