Merple

Ring Enchants.

[Formula: Enchant Ring - Stats]
[Formula: Enchant Ring - Striking]
[Formula: Enchant Ring - Healing Power]
[Formula: Enchant Ring - Spellpower]

These enchants can only be done by the enchanter on their own gear. The enchants are no small bonus.

-In our country, any CBC reporter can dream of becoming head of state.

 

kalbear

There are a few enchants that can only be used by enchanters - the ring enchants are fairly nice (+40 healing total for the rings). But...is that it? I thought there were a few more, but from what I can see that's the only enchanter-only ability that exists.

Admittedly, the goggles do get replaced eventually. Alchemy, probably as well. JC is likely to be potent throughout the lifetime of the player. But I don't think anything comes close to the goggles or the alchemist's stone for a long time, and unless you're making massively fast progression I don't see that bonus to the rings as being so much better than what engineering or alchemy can do for you.

 

galzohar

I was only taking into consideration proffession benefits that cannot be provided by others, obviously. Which still puts enchanting on top.
In the LONG run, JC is probably the 2nd best proffession and should be your secondary, however it only provides 4 extra healing at the high end play and 8 extra healing at the low end (since the yellow and blue JC gem are not really any better than blue quality gems). This gets to the point of asking "am I REALLY hardcore enough to level the proffession for that?..." I probably would draw the line here, although once I stacked enough gold from AH farming I will reconsider. While JC can be a money-maker it makes money giving services that anyone can provide, hence I wil neglect it ATM as I assume people have a guild/friends who can cut stuff for them.

 

Chromas

Great post. As a new paladin just starting to get into healing I learned a lot from this. One thing I am still struggling with is the downrank penalty on BoL? Perhaps I missed this somewhere in the post previously, but I do not understand what the penalty is. If somebody could explain it, I would be most appreciative.

 

galzohar

You simply get lower benefit than the tooltip value when you use lower ranks.

 

galzohar

Anyone found a good way to evaluate the effective healing done by crits? I'm still bothered by the fact so many are happy with crit including nihilum paladins yet for crit to actually win, even with insane +healing and mana regen (sp/shaman/pots/etc) and even with epic crit gems VS blue healing or heal/mp5 gems, you still need to take amounts of effective healing done by crits that was repeatedly claimed by people in this thread as unrealistic.

Currently I wouldn't consider crit to have any value at all for "burst", aka "I need that big heal now on this dude or he dies". However crit definitely adds a non-negligible effective healing that adds both to your HP/mana and your HP/s (and thus allows more efficient mana use as a side effect). However I'm still trying to come up with a way to actually evaluate the effective healing from crit, as crits obviously don't do effective healing of 150% either. The evaluation of crit is the only real hole I have in my efficiency theorycrafting.

Of course after you know how to max your efficiency, there is the "wait, do I really need all that efficinecy? The tank just died becuase my HL just hit for 6k and took 2s to cast instead of 6.5k in 1.95s!". So obviously HPS has an yet additional benefit of being able to save people better, and haste is the best stat to increase that, however +healing is not bad for it either. mana stats and crit obviously have nothing to do with it. So the other hole in my theorycrafting is "how much burst should I really sacrifice for the sake of higher efficiency? Does efficiency even matter?"

I just joined an SSC/TK guild with my rerolled paladin and couldn't get below 8k mana with a shadow priest, yet my healing was on bosses was on par with their top healers (as long as I didn't die). I kinda sucked on trash though compared to most of their healers some also being paladins. But TBH I don't care too much as I did at least my part on the bosses although I do wonder why I was doing so poorly on trash for the sake of curiousity.

 

Quozzy

The only way I have come up with so far isn't a perfect solution, but it's the best I can think of, so it's what I'm using atm.

I basically use the gear spreadsheet, plug in my stats as usual, but set Illumination talent points to 0. That way i can equate Crit to Heal. With my current gear setup I have:

1Heal = 1
1Crit Rating = 0.81 (was 2.15 with Illumination)

I'm not sure that this is what you're asking for though, probably something along the lines of guesstimating/calculating something similar to what I've done but also taking into account the overheal.

 

vorda

I'm not sure I understand what you'r doing Quozzy (or the logic behind it anyway).

Are you doing this?
- Use normal values, X value for crit rating
- Remove illumination talent points, Y value for crit rating
- Assume all crit healing is overhealing: X-Y = crit rating value (for pure efficiency)

What I would actually need is an addon that monitors how much of my crit heals is overhealing, anyone able to write something like that? Ifnot, I may just write a simple combatlog scanner. (but I'm pretty bad at it)

 

Quozzy

Are u talking about a mod which during combat will tell you how much say your last 10 HL's overhealed for on average? (or some customisable data along those lines). This could be quite useful to so you can more easily adjust the rank HL you are using or something like that.

If you are looking at it from a theorycraft point of view and want a mod which will tell you your average overheal throughout a boss fight, so that you can come up with some figures with which to equate +heal to crit, well i'm very sceptical there, it would rely on alot if variables:

1) Which encounter
2) Who you are healing (the tanks level of gear)
3) Healer setup (the amount of overheal you are going to do will vary alot depending on what combination of healers you are using on the tank.
4) Healers don't always heal the same way, you might learn a boss fight mainly using rank 7 precasting, then the next attempt you might decide that FoL spam is better, or that you need to change rank of HL, or you are just going to spam a lower rank HL. Other healers will be doing the same, and you cannot adjust for this.
5) How much the other healers are concentrating on what they are doing (a group of awake healers will keep an MT topped off far better than a tired group)
6) Randomness/timing of heals

I think it would be extremely hard to make a mod that can come up with some good figures given the number of variables, even if one was created, I am not sure i would find myself relying on the data.

I think the first idea though of mid combat data, which allows you to see how much you are overhealing for so that you can change rank accordingly would be useful, but there is probably a mod out there already which does this.

 

vorda

I'm not asking for a number that covers all variables though, as long as there is encounter based splitting (or a manual reset), the only thing I can't fill in myself is how much of my crits is overhealing.

I looked into the combatlog.txt abit but I cant figure out how to get overhealing data from it, unless you assume everyone has X hp, calculate the damage they take and compare that to the heals they get. Which would be too complex for my horrible coding skills anyway.

This would be a great addition to WWS actually.

 

galzohar

I have no problem implementing stuff into the spreasheet. ATM I set the "on-crit" heal to be 115% of the "regular" heal and the original spreadsheet already uses these values to calculate your effective healing with your mana.

The problem is I'm not sure 115% is correct. According to how nihilium gears, it simply has to be much more than 115%, at least 130% if not much higher.

To see the problem with using WWS to figure out that number is, let's look at some simplified cases:
You could have all your non-crit heals heal for exactly how much was needed so no overhealing but if they crit they'd overheal, and all your crit heals do exactly 1/3 overhealing (so would do 0 overhealing if they didn't crit). In this situation additional crit will provide 0 extra healing (of course it still provides more healing through mana returns, but that's not what we're trying to figure out here, we know the "healing mana returns" value of crit already).
You could, however, have 1/2 your heals do massive overhealing, and the other 1/2 heal for significantly less than what was actually needed. that means 1/2 your heals would gain from critting, and the other 1/2 wouldn't, making the crit value 125%. Of course you could have all your heals significantly underheal and have 150% crit value.

Basically I don't see a way how WWS can tell you where you're standing out of the above scenarios. If anyone finds a good way to evaluate where the crit value should be at, more or less, based on anything realistic, please post Remember though, that your normal heals overheal too, which makes it even harder to figure out (or maybe doesn't matter? I don't know).
I have no problem calculating stat values once I know "crits heal on average for 115%" or whatever. I even adjusted the srpeadsheet so you can modify the crit value by adjusting the tables that say how much your heals heal for.

 

vorda

I managed to refrain myself from replying on this last time, but now I just have to.

Nihilum used TF back when math had proven that it was outclassed by alot of other weapons.
Awake uses jumpstyle stopcasting.
etc...

Just because they have world first kills doesnt mean their gem choices are perfect.

(I'm not saying they arent either, I'm just saying its unrelated and a horrible argrument)

 

galzohar

I never said their gem choices were perfect, yet again if someone disagrees with your theory, especially when that someone has vast experience with the game, you may want to double check it, which is what I'm trying to do. Instead of bashing nihilum show me a way that'll tell me if it's really something like 115%, or maby 105% or 140%... Then you can have actual results. Until you know for sure how much effective healing is gained from critical heals you can't really bash nihilium, as their gem choices just mean different assumptions that we do not yet know if they're correct or not.
On a side note I'm assuming they give all red gems to thier DPSers so it's pretty much epic crit gems VS 18 healing gems. With 115% there's no way in hell 10 crit wins over 18 healing or even 10 int. So it's either nihilium wrong or that it's really more like 130% or more. Until you find a way to show me reality is closer to 115%, which does seem more reasonable to me but I hadn't find a way to actually check it in game, you can't really go and directly bash nihilum's gem choices.

 

Prinsesa

On the subject of professions:

1. No matter what gear level you're at, Enchanting will always provide a benefit. Engineering Goggles can be replaced, The Hand of Eternity can be replaced and even the Alchemist's Stone can be replaced. However, whether you're just clearing Kara or farming Illidan, Enchanting will always provide you with 40 more healing than an otherwise identically geared person.

2. Having said that Engineering Goggles can be replaced, I still consider Engineering to be very much worth it, because the potential replacements only come into play at the SSC/TK level (Vashj, to be exact). Even then, you might still want to hang onto your Goggles as T5 can be considered a sidegrade depending on the rest of your gear/stat preferences, in addition to saving up the DKP for something else.

3. Jewelcrafting is similar to Enchanting in that it will also provide a stat bonus that cannot be duplicated by any non-Jewelcrafter, with the difference that JC's margins are much smaller.

4. In contrast to #2, a profession such as Blacksmithing would only yield a Hand of Etenity and the Dawnsteel Shoulders. The HoE is rather redundant given the availability of the Gavel of Pure Light, not to mention the HoE itself is BOE if you're willing to pay for enough Nethers. The Dawnsteel's pattern is in the Black Temple, which is a far cry from T5-quality Goggles available from a trainer.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

vorda

The World of Warcraft Armory
Last Resort, world 3d guild.
I never said Nihilum gems are bad, I just said that doubting your assumptions because top guild #xx is using them isnt always a good idea. Defenitly not when you see people from top guild #xx+1 using different gems.

I fully agree with your point that the only way to solve the +heal vs crit issue is a way to monitor exactly how much of your crits are effective healing.

edit: about the tradeskills; I took Enchanting (for obvious reasons) and Tailoring back in the day. The primal mooncloth belt still is one of the best in the game imo (even for paladins) and back in the day tailoring CDs were big money aswell.
I'd probably go Enchanting/Engineering aswell if I were to do it again now, especially now engineering has turned into a (primals) gathering profession aswell.

 

galzohar

The person in the armory link you posted isn't any different than the nihilum paladins. Both him and Nihilum paladins seem to socket 22 healing gems when available but 10 crit gems when 22 healing is not available since it probably gets prioritised to DPS, and after that probably paladins are still last priority at least for nihilum. Same for 11 heal 2 mp5 gems going to other healers first. So it's really "why are they choosing 10 crit over 18 healing or 10 int?" rather than 22 healing which is obviously not available and obviously the most worthwhile gem to have at least in most situations.

 

vorda

I see, I missed your point then, sorry. (last time I checked, which is a while ago, some of them were going full crit.)

 

Holybot

My guild has been clearing Kara for a few months. Last night I finally received Legplates of the Innocent (1yellow, 2blue sockets) and I have a few questions regarding rare gems. Given this portion of the original post:

Am I correct to say that Dazzling Talasite > Royal Nightseye? I know it is splitting hairs, and situational on whether I feel I have enough + healing. Or is frequency of a shadow priest the biggest factor where stacking +healing is all that matters due to the fact that I go OOM less often?

With the bonus from Divine Intellect and Holy Guidance the Talasite comes out ahead, and is less than half the cost. Here's the math:

Dazzling Talasite : (4*2.25) + (2*4.5) +(0.1*4*2.25) + (0.35*4) = 20.3 pts
Royal Nightseye : (9*1) + (2*4.5) = 18 pts

On the other hand, gold is not an issue. Given the rate that we are progressing, I will probably have the legs a long time. Do I just give in and buy higher scoring epic gems from the AH at 30 times the price? I don't really want to put 1k worth of gems in pants from Kara, but I could justify it given the expected life of the pants.

I feel that most paladins I know go with the Nightseye because it looks better at first glance. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.

 

galzohar

9 healing is better than 4 int on the spreadsheet pretty much no matter what (realistic) stats I put in it, not to mention 9 healing also provides more burst healing to handle nasty situations. Of course if you're ever socketing nightseyes in red sockets it would make sense to socket talasites over noble topazes in yellow sockets, however the healing gain is small (or even a loss with a shadow priest) while you're losing burst. Overall I had a 9 heal 2 mp5 in my t4 helm and I'm probably changing it to 18 healing because I seem to usually get a shadow priest *and* seem to generally need burst healing more than I need efficiency.

 

Bismar

Depends on what you have so far. The impression I get from this thread is that if you have 1600 healing you can relax and get stuff like Dazzling Talasite, but if you are still below that threshold, you need to stack +healing.

 

Holybot

Fair enough. I am sitting at +14xx healing buffed, so I guess I will go the dual +9 healing 2mp5 route. I have a high amount of Mp5 considering my gear level, due to things like Oathkeeper Helm and some mail that I'm not afraid to wear.

I haven't had the best of luck with having Shard, chess shield, or Illhoof chestpiece drop. They are some huge upgrades due to the crap I am wearing. I'm 1-2 drops away from +1700, as I am sure many are.

Most of our old holy pallies went prot/ret/rerolled druid, and haven't stayed current on Healadin discussions.

Thank you for this resource, and thank you for the replies.

 

galzohar

I hit 70 on my rerolled paladin 3 weeks ago and tbh in every raid encounter I've been to so far (kara, 3 ZA bosses, 3/4 TK and leo in SSC) I found additional mana useless in the presence of a shadow priest (which I always had except 1 kara run in which mana still wasn't an issue using pvp potions only on illhoof and on price a shadowpriest joined), but I'm almost at 1900 healing and I still wished I had more. I don't get all of the "I have enough healing" thing guys, unless you're completely neglecting your FoL button and just max rank HL overheal I don't see how you can have "enough HPS" and "not enough mana". When the tank (or even a random person) eats a burst, my max rank HL usually doesn't bring him to full. And when giving consistent healing (usually to the tank) I'd love if my FoLs would do more so I don't have to resort to HL as often.

Maybe later I'll get to fights where mana is more of an issue, but I don't see how my +healing will ever be an overkill, ever.

 

AriasImmortal

I don't ever have an spriest and I'd take healing/int over int/mp5 at any level now. Just chain chug mana pots, downrank if needed (or just use FoL) and you should be good to go. I'd really almost take +healing over everything but we're always low on reds :|

 

jusion

I take +22 healing over everything these days. If we had some extra reds on hand, I would be 100% reds. Mp5 is never a problem with t6, ever. I'm now outputting over 1 million more healing than the next closest paladin who is gem'd with the epic Healing/Int gems (over the duration of 1 raid night, which is typically all of hyjal + 3-4 bosses in BT, or from gurtogg on in BT). In my mind, there is absolutely nothing better for FoL spam then +22 healings, and FoL spam is pretty much all a paladin has to do once sufficiently geared.

 

Blastmaster

After reading through all pages and trying to follow the maths done in this thread, it all comes down to this "sad" fact. In >96% of all Bossfights you just spam FoL especially if you are on MT duty. A HL here and there and while moving sometimes a HS if needed.. that's all (provided that everything is under control and other healers know how to play^^)

Even all the considerations about the gems is slightly exaggerated, cos' in which fight do you really reach the absolute limit? Like I said above, if everything works well in a fight, Palas normally leave the fight with at least 10% mana. When you seldom/never reach the limit you'll never experience what difference a different (but still reasonable) gem would have made.
I must admit that I#m a fan of socket bonuses, so I always try to use the needed gems. Oversocketing for example +18 heal gems is imho not necessary and also make it hard/impossible to meet the requirements of the metagem. A good measure of all the important stats mentioned in this thread (mp5, int, crit, heal) does the magic. I mostly raid with the same gear, I only switch trinkets and use different consumables depending on the boss and never had any problems with that.

Running oom can normally only happen, when:
1) you have to spam HL
2) you do not activate your trinkets on CD
3) you never use your 41-holy talent on CD
4) you never swallow a chug of good ol' manabrew

To me raiding is like the game of soccer. Healers are defence/goalie and DDs are the strikers. A Raid can compensate to 1-2 bad DDs but it is not possible to compensate 1 really bad healer. A mistake on goalie/healer side and you have the wipe. A weak performance of a DD and you can still kill the Boss.

It was said before. Going into the tiniest of details (i.e 2mp5 more or +4 int?), may let you lose the overview of what you really have to do.
To make an extraordinary performance als holypally you "just" need:

- well-balanced and good gear (with reasonable gems and enchants)
- three addons (Grid, clique, quartz)
- your trinkets/skills/spells short-binded either to mousebuttons and/or keyboard

and maybe the most important

- fast hands, good eye-to-hand-coordination, quick perceptive faculty, knowledge of game mechanics and experience --- >all this known as SKILL

Nuff said!