With proper raid buffs, there is absolutely no way to ever go oom spamming FoL. I don't see a point valuing any stat other than +healing if you never ever HL. However since tank damage taken is not consistent, I find FoL spamming to not always be good enough. Sometimes he needs that HL to get him back to top. The more often it happens, the more mana issues you might have which makes mana start being more than "useless". The less often it happens (but still happens) the less mana problems you'll have and thus healing/haste can be nice so that HL will actually land in time (or you can look at it as just higher raw HPS on-demand).
Holy light spamming is kinda like AB spamming for a mage - no way to keep up with the mana cost no matter what gear and raid support you have, really. However healing is not like dps, as in the boss doesn't care if you did the dmg now or later, he only cares when his HP hit 0 (or low enough for next phase). For the tank sometimes you can't just "let FoL do the healing" becuase while most of the time it'll work fine, sometimes your tank will just die. HL is a pretty damn fast heal and huge HPS, not using it when the tank (or anyone) is low is just a waste of a class ability, especially when you have so much mana that you can never spend it all on just FoL anyway.
With proper raid buffs, there is absolutely no way to ever go oom spamming FoL. I don't see a point valuing any stat other than +healing if you never ever HL. However since tank damage taken is not consistent, I find FoL spamming to not always be good enough. Sometimes he needs that HL to get him back to top. The more often it happens, the more mana issues you might have which makes mana start being more than "useless". The less often it happens (but still happens) the less mana problems you'll have and thus healing/haste can be nice so that HL will actually land in time (or you can look at it as just higher raw HPS on-demand).
Holy light spamming is kinda like AB spamming for a mage - no way to keep up with the mana cost no matter what gear and raid support you have, really. However healing is not like dps, as in the boss doesn't care if you did the dmg now or later, he only cares when his HP hit 0 (or low enough for next phase). For the tank sometimes you can't just "let FoL do the healing" becuase while most of the time it'll work fine, sometimes your tank will just die. HL is a pretty damn fast heal and huge HPS, not using it when the tank (or anyone) is low is just a waste of a class ability, especially when you have so much mana that you can never spend it all on just FoL anyway.
I don't know,if you are referring to my post. If you do, then we've had a misunderstanding, because I never said that HL is useless or that you never need to cast HL. What I pointed out was, that most of the time you are spamming FoL and nothing more. HL is indeed very important and in certain situations you can't get away by just casting FoL. One big skill of a Pally is of course to judge whether HL is needed or not. When in doubt you should always go for the bigger one (even twice or thrice) and then return back to routine.
Overheal in general is no big deal cos it's that what spamming is all about.
In opposition to the oppinion mentioned in this thread, healing is NOT a reactive Job. Since BC it has more and more grown into a farsighted or precautionary job, i.e you have to start healing damage that hasn't even been inflicted yet.
In our raid we have a druid, a priest and me on the MT. The druid is keeping up hots, I am doin the spam business and the priest is using his flashheal. With this combination the MT never goes down. We normally wipe because other people are dead.
The other 2 Pallies in our Raid are also spamming but their duty is cross-healing (of course depending on the encounter). A quick flash on everyone who has lost life and the other healers do the rest. And also the occasional HL if needed.
Surely the different holy-play-styles vary because of specific raid-setups.
In general you could say: If your designated target(s) don't die, you have done your job perfectly, no matter what WWS says afterwards.
While proactive healing is awesome, it's not always possible. When I know the tank will take a big hit from some timed ability I'll precast HL, but most of my HLs are casted because the tank took some unpredictable big hit and needs to be topped off. FoL does most of the healing, HL does most of the"I just saved that guy from dying" healing. That's another reason for trying to gather up a decent haste set, for the many fights where mana is not an issue, even with FoL spamming that is unaffected by haste you still need those "oh-shit" HLs and those are boosted by haste very much. Even if you consider the "oh-shit" combo FoL+HL (as you pre-casted FoL then saw the burst, let FoL land and casted a HL), haste would still be by far the most effective stat to increase the HP/S of that FoL+HL combo, even though it only really affects the HL. The tough thing to consider though is how likely your tank is to die becuase of lack of burst healing compared to how likely is he to die becuase you go oom - as we all know both of those cases are not common but both do happen, and it's not like you can gear for anything other than "do a lot of helaing until oom" and "do as much burst HPS as possible".
Wearing a haste set while using FoL just to lower your HL cast time in extreme circumstances would seem to be counter-productive.
In a 25-man raid you will (usually) have at least 1 tree druid keeping HoTs on the MT to cover any "oh shit" damage spikes, at least long enough for you to wind up a 2.0 second cast (you are weaving downranked HL's to keep up LG right?). In addition, lowering the cast time of your FoL will dip you below the GCD. This doesn't affect your healing by any large amount, but it does make it near impossible to use the stopcasting system to increase your base HPS.
Its also really is worth noting that if you're doing an encounter where you can afford to sacrifice nearly all your regen in order to stack haste it usually means you severely outgear the encounter and your tank shouldn't be in any large danger of dying in the first place.
In addition, lowering the cast time of your FoL will dip you below the GCD. This doesn't affect your healing by any large amount, but it does make it near impossible to use the stopcasting system to increase your base HPS.
Huh? Haste has no effect on your flash of light HP/S. Simply use the gcd indication on your spell buttons (you do have at least one button visible on your UI right?) and press FoL again when the gcd is done. Saying haste makes it *harder* to chain flash of light closer to the gcd is mind-boggling to me.
DeeNogger: "No dot timer? Get your belt off, its spanking time."
Haste has no affect on FoL HPS however in an "oh-shit" moment the HPS of the FoL you pre-casted plus the HL you casted reactively to recover the sudden burst will still increase dramatically with haste. It's hard to tell in which fights it would/wouldn't be practical to gear haste for that one purpose (considering it completely gimps the amount of total healing you can do before oom if that has any likelyness to be an issue), but I can see it being useful in at least some of the ZA fights I've done when you have a shadow priest not to mention a shaman on top. Of course those fights are short and bursty with few healers on the tank, but afaik there's more than just 1-2 fights in bt/hyjal that are rather short, and we never know what's sunwell going to be like. Even if I'll rarely use it, keeping a haste set seems to not be a bad idea.
This isn't even taking into account the fact that haste also reduces that "damn if only that HL would land 0.1s faster..." factor, although I'm not sure how to take that into consideration and if it really has a high value on top of the pure HPS increase of haste.
Just to show some numbers, to increase your burst by 1% you'll need something in the area of 60 +healing. To increase HL's HPS by 1% you need 15.7 haste, and to increase the HPS of a FoL+HL combo by 1% you need like 21 haste rating. That makes most haste healing gear by far the best choice for the slot concerning burst HPS, which is quite obvious considering this is what this gear was made for. These numbers are with 1900 healing libram of souls redeemed and blessing of light, assuming no crits (just like you assume the tank won't dodge...).
Regarding crit I'm still clueless for a way to evaluate the crit overhealing, and it seems to have a pretty huge affect over how good crit is for your efficiency even with small changes to "effective crit value".
What's really hard is to decide what's really more important - burst HPS or max healing done in a given fight using all mana? I keep seeing the same contradicting comments in the threads of all healing classes on these forums - some keep claiming that mana is not an issue and more burst would be awesome to save people, while others claim they could've always used more mana to do more healing if they had more. With priests tending to claim they can use more mana and druids/pallies tending to claim they can't use all their mana, but in every class thread I keep seeing people claiming both ways. So how do you actually decide what's more important in a given fight - max burst or max healing using all mana? And how would you "balance" the 2?
I mean I could always calculate how much an item increases my burst and how much it increases my healing done, but how would you really decide? Is trying the fight and seeing "omg I went oom" or "omg tank died to a burst" and guessing how much to sacrifice of 1 for the other the only way? Or can we find a smarter way to look at it?
Huh? Haste has no effect on your flash of light HP/S. Simply use the gcd indication on your spell buttons (you do have at least one button visible on your UI right?) and press FoL again when the gcd is done. Saying haste makes it *harder* to chain flash of light closer to the gcd is mind-boggling to me.
You misread me. I'm not talking about chain casting FoL, I'm talking about using stopcasting (or what was stopcasting until 2.3) in order to exploit the natural server lag to increase your HPS. Since FoL is already on the GCD it would be nearly impossible to use stopcasting with any sizable amount of haste, since the client will run you into a GCD and prevent the next cast with a shorter cast time. Haste is in nearly all respects a negative benefit to any kind of FoL spambot, which is pretty much what most people do nowadays.
I suppose using stopcasting is somewhat of a dead art though and has little application to what you're talking about doing.
What's really hard is to decide what's really more important - burst HPS or max healing done in a given fight using all mana? I keep seeing the same contradicting comments in the threads of all healing classes on these forums - some keep claiming that mana is not an issue and more burst would be awesome to save people, while others claim they could've always used more mana to do more healing if they had more. With priests tending to claim they can use more mana and druids/pallies tending to claim they can't use all their mana, but in every class thread I keep seeing people claiming both ways. So how do you actually decide what's more important in a given fight - max burst or max healing using all mana? And how would you "balance" the 2?
I mean I could always calculate how much an item increases my burst and how much it increases my healing done, but how would you really decide? Is trying the fight and seeing "omg I went oom" or "omg tank died to a burst" and guessing how much to sacrifice of 1 for the other the only way? Or can we find a smarter way to look at it?
Honestly, I'd say it really doesn't matter that much. The increases in the amount healed from different gem combinations is probably pretty fractional, and at the top end of things, even non-crits are probably sufficient to top off most spikes.
Very rarely was a tank death the result of not being able to top a spike off fast enough. Most of the time, either 1.) the tank was basically insta-gib'd, or 2.) the healers were just being dumb.
My advice would to just go with what works best for, or makes the most sense to you, because there will pretty much never be a concrete answer on what is better.
Last edited by jusion : 12/28/07 at 11:59 PM.
Reason: spelling
IMO you should leave the burst damage savers to the druids/priests/shammies, they have NS/PoM for a reason.
I usually tell the insta-healers, if the tank drops below 30% (or some threshold) you blow it insta + biggest heal, leave the rest up to the pally FOL spammers.
All my HLs are pretty much reactive. I think this is one area i need to work on, since i usually save DI until i need that rank 11 HL. Blowing DI on FOLs feel like a waste, but maybe i should start doing that.
I would imagine Pallies are more like a consistent sustainable large HOT, with occasional spikes in healing.
A haste set actually makes sense if it doesnt gimp you too much in the +healing department, but you have to make sure someone else is going to benefit from your +haste. If the insta healers still blow their ns/PoM then your +haste is virtually going down the drain.
Galz: I think your on the right track but it seems like you ran into a fundamental problem. Not all healers heal the same way. For an healer that is on "oh shit duty" (typically 3rd pally that spams on MT which covers others as well) hes going to prob want a haste set. If your a primary healer on MT duty (constant FOL spam), you'd prob go for the +healing set.
Worse not all guilds use their healers this way so it really breaks down into the synergy between all the healers and i dont think your going to be able to quantify that much.
None of the haste gear in the game "gimpes you too much in the +healing department", as if you look at equal ilvl items one will have mp5/crit and the other will have haste, and both will have similar healing. This is just how blizzard created the current haste gear - at least for most gearslots.
Sometimes you know the tank is going to need HL, or is likely to need it.
For example on ZA last boss phase 2, when he puts the debuff on everyone I know the priest will be mass dispelling and not healing and he might get an overpower in, so I just cast HL and most of the time the tank actually takes enough damage for it (although occasionally takes little to no damage from avoidance but sometimes even too much and dies as he can easily get crushed there). Overpower I think can happen more often than swiftmend - and you don't always have a resto druid there. Not to mention a hit+overpower+crush is quite nasty. If I just spam FoL, the tank could take another burst before he even hit 100% HP. Also I find it hard to run out of mana on that fight so no reason not to wear haste gear to make things easier.
PoM+swiftmend are just too weak, and NS is a 3 minute cooldown so either the guy will be trigger happy about it and use it on the first burst and not have it up when it's actually needed on a real burst (like hit overpower hit parry crush for example), or hesitate too much about using it when a real burst happens. I suppose HL drops in usefulness the more healers you have on the tank, but I really can't see how you could use it "minimally" on a fight with any significant damage to the tank (especially on bosses with a "special"). Haste will increase your ability to help the tank recover by using HL by a huge amount. Wether it's worth the loss of mana or not is up to the fight and your group composition - but haste has a huge value imo when mana is not an issue, which is what haste was probably designed for in the firstplace.
I suppose HL drops in usefulness the more healers you have on the tank, but I really can't see how you could use it "minimally" on a fight with any significant damage to the tank (especially on bosses with a "special").
Consider Illidan phase 1 vs. phase 2. In first phase it's just dumb to do anything else than FoL spam. When all the healers are spamming MT with small heals (or maybe precasting) the incoming HPS is just huge (over 6000 HPS our last Illidan kill without any landed precasts). Even if the MT gets 12k spike dmg it will be healed to full in less than 2 seconds making HL quite useless.
In phase 2 on the other hand we usually have only 2,5 healers on both tanks (we have alot of palas so 2 palas per tank + tree keeping hots up). Here HL is alot more needed. I actually spam the tank with FoL/HL7 and use HL11 when tank gets spiked.
If you soloheal, for example, priest tank on Council you will be using HL even more.
So I'd say your assumption that the FoL/HL ratio goes up the more healers you have no said target goes up is correct.
The thing is the value of haste doesn't drop much if you HL *less*, it only really drops if you never HL on an emergency... If just one time in a 20 minute fight you HLed and the haste saved the tank, however you never ever go oom on that fight, the haste is infinately better than any non-haste/healing stat. Of course this is a very specific case, real fights aren't that straight-forward but you can see the value of haste isn't *directly* dependant on how often you HL. The value of haste is dependant on how likely your HPS is to be a problem compared to how likely your efficiency is to be a problem.
Well... I wouldn't stack haste for just emergency heals. If you need haste to "save the tank" there is something wrong with your healing or tanking that should be looked upon. Every fight in this game is (as they should) completely healable without any haste. If your tank dies regularly the problem is somewhere else than healers not stacking haste.
If you see haste as emergency save you just promote bad healing and sloppy playing.
If HPS is a problem:
1) you don't use correct spells / high enough ranks for the task (adjust personal healing plan / play style)
2) you don't have enough healers for the task (adjust healing assignements)
3) your tank / raid is not geared enough for the fight (get more loot)
Hi first post here I was looking for some advice from some more knowledgeable in the paladin class mechanics than I am.
My guild is finishing up attunments in SSC and TK before we move onto t6 content full time, we are currently 3/5 MH and 3/9 BT.
My armoury link is The World of Warcraft Armory Logged with pve gear that I use, unless a certain boss needs more hp's then I would substiute in some s3 arena(Head/Gloves) and/or honour(Neck/Ring) rewards.
I am mostly concerned about how I should gem my gear, should I aim for more raw healing? Im concious my mp5 is already a little on the low side but I rarely have problems (so far) going oom. Should I consider a different trinket instead of the Karazhan one if so which would be most ideal, I still carry a few older ones including the prayerbook and spell haste proc trinket from BM.
As for spell haste should I start collecting a certain amount/ is it worth sacrificing crit for these days?
Note on gear I use the pvp cloak instead of the bishops cloak on occasion, still no luck with the Prince's cloak dropping. I have the Libram from Opera event but in raids we rarely have enough paladins to give BoL and make it worthwhile. Perhaps I should be getting the badge reward libram?
Thanks in advance any advice or constructive crisitscm would be appreciated.
Your gear is pretty good, and you'll be able to heal fine in any of the T6 encounters, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Some quick upgrades you can get are the S3 PvP healing neck and the Tome of Diabolic Remedy from ZA (to replace the Ribbon). These are both a bit better than what you have now and are pretty easy to get.
As for gems, I would just go for what suits you and your healing situation best. If you're not running out of mana with your current mp5, then +healing gems are a good way to go. If you are running out of mana, then +11 healing 2mp5 are nice.
Wow, so I've definitely read over this thread probably 5 times.
I recently started raiding on my paladin as my main and I'm having a lot of trouble deciding what exaclty is the best route. I raided as a rogue previously and I'd like to think that I used to be on the top of my game when it came to rogue theorycrafting and itemization. It was really easy to determine what item would max my dps.
Now I'm a Paladin and not only do I have questions of what itemization route to go, but also what the goal is I'm even trying to achieve.
Problem 1: Defining what exactly I want.
Efficiency? Big heals? Ability to Heal forever? Do these ever overlap?
Problem 2: PvE and PvP
This character was originally a pvp toon only. As I'm getting PvE gear I'm starting to use it more and more for Arena. I want sets I can use and are itemized nicely for both, aside from my full resilience set that I keep up to date/enchanted/etc.
What I have gathered so far:
I have a Paladin friend who refuses to discuss the math with me and insists his experience tells him stacking crit is what I should do. However, everything I've read goes against this. Our guild is very very short on spinnels so I wouldn't be able to go all +22 and 9h/2mp5 if I wanted right away, so this is also something to consider.
In PvE I'm finding mana to rarely ever if ever become an issue as I'm almost always with a spriest, so I'm not too worried about the difference in mp5 to crit in PVE. However, in some arena brackets mana regen is precious and I'm seeing from the math here and what I've been looking at the mp5 is the way to go there.
Outside of regen, for raw healing I'm seeing that crit seems to again be outclassed by another stat. Stated many times in this thead there is no real way right now for us to approximate the extra healing we are getting that ISN'T overheal and we can know for sure that +heal will hit and we can easily judge how much overheal that is.
So how should I gear? Practical approach and go with the gems that are readily availalbe AKA stack crit? What play style should I adapt? I seem to like to spam.. I dunno so confusing.
Edit:
I talked with my GM for awhile and he gave me some insight to the crit ideas. I still don't know for sure what to do... I'm considering having 3 gear sets.. Crit, +Heal(obv has a bit of mp5/crit mixed in) and then a Mp5 set even for outside of PvE and for 2s/3s.
If I don't want to have 3 or more sets of gear, then maybe I need to pick one strength whose weaknesses are the least noticeable. Basically, it seems to really know which setup to go I should model an ideal setup of crit, heal, mp5 etc.. one of each style and simulate fights of different types and durations. Obviously some will shine on a certain type of fight. What I'd be looking at though was which one also did decent in situations it was considering "not optimal for" and go with that setup. My gut feeling though is that just straight +heal is the most versatile and will prove to have the least obvious weaknesses.
I don't even think I'm making sense anymore.... I've been up way too long and been thinking about this in cricles...way too long.
Efficiency? Big heals? Ability to Heal forever? Do these ever overlap?
That's actually the only problem really. Nobody knows what he wants, at least not anyone who posts in this thread. People keep saying mana is not an issue on one hand, then on the other hand want to have as much efficiency as possible. At the end there are 2 reasons people in your raid might die:
1. Your heals were too small / too slow.
2. You did not have mana to do the healing needed.
Since deciding whether your problem is #1 or #2 would completely change your approach on what gear to pick, it gets impossible to theorycraft. I can tell you with pretty decent accuracy using the spreadsheet what gear would be best for #1, and what would be best for #2, when ignoring the other of course. However we all know that on most fights, both #1 and #2 are possible problems that could happen...
On top of that, the way different stats affect #1 changes a LOT based on wether or not you have a shadow priest, shaman, spiritual attunement mana, potions... The fact is crit multiplies the benefit you get from mana - even if it overheals, the mana return is still there as a multiplier to your avaialble mana which was already proven mathematically, plus it does do effective healing sometimes, and while it is not reliable for #2 the extra healing, when not overhealing, does definitely save mana. mp5 adds to your mana, so it'll diminish in comparison to crit when you have more mana available no matter what the source is. Healing increases the healing you do with 1 point of mana, so it increases in value compared to crit/mp5 the more crit/mp5 you have. If that's not complicated enough, when you're trying to put a minimum level of HPS at times (which means sometimes you'll need to toss a HL to buff your HPS temproarily for a variety of reasons), having more HPS will actually have a slight reduction to how often you need to cast HL, and thus will make you more efficient and will let you heal more with the same mana, on top of the fact you do more healing/mana.
#2 is more straight forward. 1 haste is worth about 2.5~3.5 +healing (depending on your gear and wether you consdier a "burst" a FoL+HL or just 1 HL), and that pretty much sums it up. Crit is random and doesn't count here, and mana obviously doesn't increase how much healing this "oh-shit" combo does.
Basically at the end one needs to decide what's more important - 1% more of #1 or 1% more of #1, or how much of #1 they'd give up for #2 and vice versa. At the end you can heal any fight with suboptimal gear - it had been done before many many times. People cleared BT in T3 just to prove a point. You "don't need" more HPS. You "don't need" more mana efficiency. However you need to decide what is actually more likely to be a problem in the fight you're facing and have your gearing lean more towards handling that problem (or only that problem if the other one is completely irrelevent - say a 20 min fight with little dmg on the tank you'd probably want more efficiency. On a 2 min fight with insane dmg you'd want more burst).
If you're having problems in a fight it's much more likely a skill issue for either you or your group or both than a gear issue, but it doesn't change what gear is more likely to help you overcome those fights.
The way I currently handle it:
-Most fights mana is completely not an issue. No reason to not wear haste gear on those, who knows when healers fall asleep and that faster and bigger HL will save the day.
-Long+intensive fights where mana is an issue I replace the haste gear with max efficiency gear, which is generally gemmed with full +healing with the exception of good +healing socket bonuses (not to mention i need my meta to work anyway, which btw is 12 int and restore mana due to the huge mana returns over the much smaller efficiency/burst gain of 26 healing or a random MSD). This is assuming shadow priest though, nightseyes are quite superior to 18 healing gems when you don't have that support. And if you don't have a resto shaman on top of the shadow priest, 9 heal 2 mp5 is almost as good as 18 healing, however 18 healing does provide more burst so I still prefer it. On slots where I use haste gear I will always take the socket bouns on the non-haste alternative, obviously, as they're pretty much always going to provide extra efficiency over 18 healing and/or 9 heal 2 mp5 (unless it's something like 2Xyellow with a 3 int bonus although I can't recall if such an item even exists). Note that even on those long fights mana isn't an issue without intensive HL use so I'd still be willing to drop a small amount of efficiency for a large gain of burst, just not the large amounts of efficiency you lose when you wear haste gear. Note that the efficiency of 10 crit gems will only match that of 18 healing gems if you assume your crits mostly don't overheal, which is probably not the case - and even then they still do nothing for #2.
While I hadn't raided anything difficult in SSC/TK yet (it had all been pretty easy, even the fights I've done that weren't on farm weren't healing intensive), I've noticed that most fights in ZA the max burst set is far superior. You shouldn't go in ZA without a shadow priest, and the amount of burst required on some of the fights there is pretty big. You will cast HL often on one hand, but on the other hand the fights are too short for you to go oom.
My guild atm is working on kael with ssc on farm and I am having a hard time deciding which stat to take prefence on with my gear make up, mp5, crit / int. I have gone for pure healing in my gem choice but im having a hard time deciding which trinket to pair with essence of the martyr, atm I have the choices of Tome of Diabolic Remedy, Pendent of the Violet Eye, Battlemasters Perseverance and Scarab of the Infinite cycle so far I have seen the Tome as the best choice but im not sure if it is better than the Eye or a more + healing trinket. Armory isnt working atm so ill list my unbuffed healing stats
These stats are with me using the Tome of Diabolic Remedy.
Usually by the end of most boss fights im bordering oom with chain chugging pots which is why ive been leaning towards mp5 but int/crit from pendant may be more benificial, im not really sure.
Thanks for the response. It helped me put a lot of things in to perspective. Is there anyway you could elaborate on the returns of crit based on total mana available over the x time? Spriest, Illumination,whatever else might be giving you mana?
My thoughts right now are that I'll build a few sets of gear. We never know what type of fights sunwell will bring for us and I find myself in a lot of different situations.
Basically, I want to take pieces that are already itemized a certain way and gem them to maximize that even more for that set of gear. Here is what I have so far,
PvE:
Heavy Crit w/ Heal: Set of gear that reaches as close to 50% HL (the spell) crit as possible.
Heavy Heal: Focus purely on +Heal for just FoL spamming.
Mp5: For when I find myself up shit creek in terms of incoming mana. (not sure how much I'd use this outside of 2v2)
--Less important--
Haste: setup for future unknown use. As of now there aren't any fights that require more HPS than I can get in normal gear, so this is just something to have incase I find a use for it.
PvP: This is PvE mixed with some Vengeful.
2v2 and 3v3 I will have 0 sources of mana outside of my own regen, so I feel that using gear that is generous with mp5 here would be the best idea. I honestly hate these brackets on my Paladin and mainly focus on 5s, but for when I do play them I'll have this set of gear.
5v5, still determining. A few other means of getting mana become available in this bracket, but still not a whole lot. Most matches here don't last too long. Only immediate plans are to have a spellsurge weapon bagged. I had no intentions of buying s3 weapon, but I imagine I'll pick it up since I'm 5/5 now and slap that on there.
Just a thought. The only other option I can come up with is just picking one of the setups and being ok with any weaknesses it might have. My main reason for wanting to try Crit is that Lionseyes are in abundance right now and there is a wait list on a lot of the other gems. Also, the other paladins I play with really support this, so I want to try it.
Well i played around with the addon "wowequip" and kind of came up with what I consider the perfect Flashheal equip (in terms of healsize and endurance, not so much crit):
If you do the math on these you get the following key (unbuffed) stats for a holy-specced Paladin:
- 2484 +heal (with enchanting as a profession)
- 27,07 % spellcrit on Flash of Light (already including the gloves)
- 108 mp5 in combat
- Additional 5% heal on your Flash of Light through the t6 setbonus
The enchants are obviously the +healing ones every time and vitality on the boots. I would like you to figure out now where i could improve on that one. The interesting choice is probably the boots, but i think 127,5 heal on a pair of shoes is pretty impessive. And i didnt find another trinket to accompany the illidan one.
If you never HL and have a shadow priest + shaman you will stay at 100% mana spamming flashes... Which means either you go for total +healing or go for max HPS with healing/haste and use HL when the tank gets low or whatever. Really 100% FoL can work on many fights but it's never going to do as much healing as you're capable of - even though it'll work fine a lot of the time.
10 crit gems will basically never beat 18 heal gems in terms of efficiency. The only case where they could beat them is if you assume your crits never overheal (or at least don't cause increased overhealing) which is compeltely unrealistic. All those people that stack 10 crit gems imo overestimate the effective healing from crits as you pretty much need to assume you need both the mana back from crits as well as the 1.5X heal in order for 10 crit to beat 18 healing, which never happens beacuse we all know if a target is missing 5k HP you're going to HL it and if that HL crits it'll overheal, but you're not going to wait until he's almost dead at -7.5k HP so that *if* your HL crits it doesn't overheal. Especially when no healer would actually let him drop down to 7.5k. Of course the actual effect of extra healing from crit is dependant on the fight etc, but since nobody had suggested any realistic way to measure how much your crits are effectively healing I doubt the people that encourage crit gem stacking really know what they're talking about other than the "hey, I killed illidan with it, so it works - do it!" factor. And since I think we already agree you don't need the absolute best to get through game content, that point is moot.
The reaosn crit multiplies your mana is that if you assume X as the % of extra healing you get from a crit, and Y is whatever you'd heal with no crits, then with crits you'd heal Y*(1+x). Since crit gives a % mana back return as well, with M being the pre-illumination mana (taking EVERY other factor into account such as shadow priest shaman potions etc), for every M mana you gain 0.6*crit*M back. Then that 0.6*crit*M will give (0.6*crit)^2*M back, etc etc. Mathematically this is an infinite coulumn that sums up to M/(1-0.6*crit) or M * 1/(1-0.6*crit) which shows how crit is a multiplier to your mana as well. So you do more healing with each point of mana and have more mana from critiing based on how much mana you already have. mp5, on the other hand, would increase M, so the more mana you have the less significant increasing M would be compared to multiplying M. Note that this only effects the ratios between crit and mp5 or other mana stats/buffs, it has nothing to do with the effect of extra +healing, as +healing is also a multiplier to your mana, as the more mana you have the more healing you will do with each point of +healing - wether that mana is from crits or not. So no matter if you have a shadow priest or not, if you assume your crits overheal at least sometimes, 18 healing > 10 crit rating if you look at the modified spreadsheet properly - and this remains true with any realistic gear level. The heal VS mp5 and crit vs mp5 (or int...) changes a lot more based on your gear leve, and more importantly, the raid support you're receiving.
Remember a lot of people will tell you the value of crit changes based on how much you cast. This is completely untrue, as they assume you're not using all your mana. If you're not using all your mana the value for crit is absolutely 0, as you didn't use the extra mana you already had what good would even more extra mana be? Crit multiplies all mana you have, wether you actually used it or not, for the sake of "how much mana *could* I spend in this fight if things went wrong?"
For pvp while my experience isn't extensive especially not in the 2v2/3v3 area, the mana effect of mp5 and int are very easy to compare. Just take fight duration/5 and that's the mana you get from mp5. int is 15 mana per int or 16.5 with kings. Of course int also gives slight +healing and even slighter crit gains which shouldn't be ignored if you really want a perfect comparison, but when doing it simply 4 int beats 2 mp5 on a 165s fight with kings - by giving the same amount of mana with the slight addition of healing and crit. Going longer fights makes the mp5 better (although the actual break even duration would be higher than 165s due to the slight healing and crit gain).
Of course if you get mana burned to 0 or the opposing teams just does more dps than you can do cover with HPS it starts changing things in ways that cannot really be calculated in advance.
Was looking over your ideal FoL setup. Curious about a few of the picks.
Mainly wondering about the shield. What about Bastion or Enamelled Disc of Mojo with +22heal in either of those. They both work out to have more +heal or is there a minimum +crit you're trying to keep.
Also what about the Vashj gloves with 2 +22 healing in them.
I'm sure you considered these, just wondering what the reason for going the other way is, explained with math hopefully hehe.
I know galz did a pretty good indepth look at crit vs heal gems but i was still assuming you were going within the same color gems as the socket.
Does gearing (in essence like tanks putting sta gems everywhere) with +22/18 heal gems in all sockets outweigh the benefits using the best color coordinated gems and getting the bonus attribute?
(Kind of obvious from the talks as a simple yes but if someone would like to reaffairm please do )
I suppose I should plug into the spreadsheet to take a quick peek but i am at work and lazy
It really depends on what the socket bonus is, what the color is and your current stats. I can speak for my stats and say that:
A +3 int 2xblue for example is about break-even on efficiency with nightseyes VS 18 healing gems, but you lose some HPS gemming for bonus.
R/Y/B 2 mp5 bonus will give very slightly higher efficiency with the bonus but lose about the same HPS you'd lose with the 3 int 2xblue item.
R/Y/B 9 healing bonus will lose little HPS and gain a bit of efficiency.
This is all with shadow priest - without shadow priest HPS will be the same however for efficiency you're always best off with nightseye in R or B socket and talasite in yellow, going for the bonus - only exception being items that require at least 2 yellows with a bad (int/crit) socket bonus where 2xnightseye will be better. Even without a shadowpriest though you're still losing HPS, however in that case efficiency may (or may not...) be more important to you.
Note that the fact you can save more mana when your HPS is higher is already taken into account when calculating efficiency on my modified version of the spreadsheet (which unfortunately isn't user-friendly enough to post it here), so the only benefit from more HPS is simply better ability to help the tank recover from burst damage.
Note that in all the above I would probably give up the small efficiency difference for the slightly higher HPS, however the meta gem (which is FAR for efficiency than any other meta or non-meta helm no matter how you look at it) means you have to use 2 yellow and 2 blue gems, so I pick the items that will give me the closest to full 18 healing socketing and socket them for the bonus, which means my badge reward legs with R/Y/B and +9 healing stay with the bonus as well as girdle of stormguarde's hope from ZA (which is higher efficiency with bonus anyway and only 2 +heal lower for HPS) and the badge bracers. Also remember the first 2 yellow/blue gems in your gear can be the epic heroic dropped ones which make socket bonuses on the first 2 yellow/blue slots more beneficial, which means I lose less HPS and gain more efficiency by socketing the 11heal4crit and 11heal4int gems in my bracers and pants. When I get T5 head someday, I'll socket my bracers with 18 healing and get the 2 mp5 bonus from the headpiece over the 1 mp5 on the bracers (which does mean I need to run ramparts more).
12/28/07, 2:55 PM
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