Exio

Ah righy-ho.


Thanks folks for all the other information, it's fantastic!

 

panda

In Karazhan, when grouped with a priest and tree druid, is a Paladin spamming FoL a valid strategy, or should they be using bigger heals (casting/cancelling when necessary) to compensate for the weaknesses of the druid ? I found it extremely difficult as a resto druid to group with a pally that was doing just this... but usually everything goes really well in Kara - I rely on the other healers to use bigger heals while i focus more on consistency and raid healing.

 

Gerilith

A FoL-spamming pally will kinda overwrite your HoTs, so downgrading HL will be the better strategy for both of you imho. Anyway, he should know when to switch. He should know, when the group members will need more than a HoT and how much they do.

 

galzohar

FoL vs HL is not dependant on the group or the isntance, it is dependant on the dmg the raid takes VS the healing your healers can put out. This is less class dependant either and more dependant on the skill and gear of your healers and raid. Less skilled/geared healers means you will need to help healing more, which means sometimes you'll have to cover some slack with HL. Undergeared tank means no-avoidance streaks will happen more often and will hit for more and with a lower HP buffer causing more frequent HL need. Undergeared raid group sometimes means they take more damage than nescessary by killing stuff too slow, or just have too low HP buffer for you to have the time to FoL them up safely. Unskilled raid group means they don't avoid damage that is otherwise avoidable. All of these factors make a big difference in how often you need to HL.
Of course if your own gear is too low for the HL requirement you're simply going to fail the instance, however if your group is not totally horrible this shouldn't be the case (as in, you should not be required to HL often enough to go oom if everything is done right and the gear/skill of you and your raid isn't terrible). Note that having a shadow priest greatly reduces the skill/gear requirement of your whole raid since they can require more HLing and you will have the mana for it. That's probably why a lot of people say "I no longer need a shadow priest", as when the fight is on farm you simply manage without due to lower healing requirements when you and the raid are better geared and skilled. This is obviously more/less true depending on the fight.

 

Zyos

For a holy paladin raiding Karazhan and Gruul's and nearing SSC, how much mp5 and crit should I be shooting for? I'm trying to balance it but im not 100% on how much I should have of each. Some input on this would really help, thanks.

 

tdevil

Not sure if this has been mentioned but how are the trinket +healing applied to our heals?

is it directly slapped on to FOLs or is it still subject to the FOL modifier?

Lately I have barely noticed my ribbon of sacrifice's +150 healing, but i suppose that +150 is useful to all healers.

 

Sinborn

Love this thread, it has helped me understand the holy side of my alt pally greatly.

I do have one question, and it's with the OP's points system to gems. Is intellect really as good as his points system leads me to believe? The paladins in my guild don't ever talk about socketing int, it's all about healing/crit/mp5.

 

• goss

The OP states that the point system he uses is essentially arbitrary. As you skim the thread, there is obviously a lot of energy going into figuring out what an optimal socketing strategy is, particularly at the end game gear level. There certainly is no universal consensus, but as far as I know, pure Intellect gems are part of no well regarded socketing scheme. Healing/Int gems occasionally pop up in yellow sockets, though I think spellcrit gems are more common.

 

Rerolled

Flash of Light has a .48 healing coefficient (1.5s/3.5s*1.12 for Healing Light). Someone correct me if that's wrong please. And yes, the Ribbon of Sacrifice buff is subject to this. I found it to be a pretty awful trinket due to the relatively small amount of +healing it grants and the ramp-up time.

As the math has shown in this thread, you should never be using +spellcrit gems, especially since there aren't any healing/crit or mp5/crit gems outside of heroic drops. Use an int/healing or int/mp5 gem if you want to get a socket bonus.

 

• Zurm

My point system is a guide for those who want to really apply theorycrafting to socketing in hard numbers. My point system is based off blue quality gems. Essentially, it shows you which epic gems are the biggest upgrade over the rare version, not which are best... there is simply no way to define this.

 

Rerolled

While I don't feel there is a universal rule for comparing the effects of additional +healing versus additional mp5 on one's overall healing capacity, it is easy enough to convert spell crit (or int) into an equivalent amount of +healing and mp5, using some wws logs. I'd be very surprised if anyone can show that spell crit isn't a suboptimal stat based on this kind of analysis.

 

tdevil

what about the trinkets that offer straight +healing?

does that mean 2 x +200 healing trinkets popped will only increase FOL's output by ~100?

Seems like the Ashtounge trinket and maybe pendent offer the best bang for your buck click effects.

 

Kellaris

All trinkets uses and effects which grant +healing are effected by spell coefficients (0.429 for FoL7). Popping a +200 healing trinket would make your FoL7s heal for ~86 more.

I don't like the Ashtongue trinket much, but I suppose it's more of a personal preference.

 

Quozzy

Check my post in the healer trinket thread, I did a few calcs on this, for raw healing it pretty much comes out with Ashtounge is better in terms of pure throughput than a straight +healing trinket.

I would still use a +heal trinket instead of pendant though for throughput.

 

tdevil

Err yea thats what i meant haha, sorry for the bad math above.

2 x +200 healing * .46 = ~200 increase.

Geez... is that really even a burst? I suppose atleast I'll notice the difference slightly.

Raid buffs + flasks + w/ totem of air + BOL + tree on tank puts me near 2000 per FOL, i suppose popping a trinket or two will put me for sure over 2000/Fol.


Didn't someone calc out proc the pendant and chaincasting FOLs = +300-400 mana?

I'd figure its a mini mana pot and gives me a reason to FOL spaz

 

tdevil

Some food for thought,

Fel Reaver's Piston + Ashtounge for pallies might be a pretty dang good HOT solution.....

Does it justify the lost in actual throughput though? but damn that would be an very interesting setup!

 

galzohar

Using WWS will greatly undervalue the mana returns from crits, as crits return a portion of the actual mana used, and if you didn't use all your mana, you didn't test the full benefit of crit. However your WWS did show full benefit of other mana gains. If you say "but this is the mana it gave me in THAT fight so this is how good it is", guess what, it didn't do anything for you on that fight as you didn't go oom and wouldn't go oom even if you had less crit. Any mana stats only matter for the scenario or "what if I do go oom in that fight, how much healing I can do?" otherwise, just max your HPS. Using a WWS where you didn't go oom will not represent the "what if I do go oom" scenario in which mana actually matters, as you did not use all your mana on that fight and thus didn't need more.
You can only use WWS to evaluate crit mana returns if you used all your mana. Or easier, you could've just take ALL mana sources (except crit!), add them up, and multiply by 1/(1-0.6*crit) and see how much mana you really could've used in that fight due to your crit mana returns. Then add up the extra heals done by crit to make things actually complicated (as simply calculating the mana returns from crit is pretty damn easy).

 

Ngita

Not quite sure what you are saying here. If I go oom its generally because I have used my cooldowns incorrectly ie forgot to drink mana potions for a few minutes, or its a wipe in progress.

If I am using a WWS to value a upgrade I woud generally use the hardest fight in our current progression done correctly. Even then I dont see how it "greatly" undervalues. If I use 32k mana during a fight and finish with 5k mana then its no more then 20% undervalued even according to your criteria. As a group 1 healer without shadowpriest I have allways found spell crit mana return to be very low.

 

Fielding

I itemize +heal mainly. I juggle mp5/crit here and there and have some items/itemrack sets that favor one or the other extensively. Here is a spot I'm curious about...

What do you guys think overall about these belts:

Belt_A: Girdle of Hope - Items - World of Warcraft (Socketed with two +22 healing gems)

and

Belt_B: Girdle of Stromgarde's Hope - Items - World of Warcraft (Socketed with an +11heal +2mp5 gem and +22healing gem)

Breakdown comparison:

Belt_A: 38sta, 27int, 128 healing, 21 crit and 0mp5

Belt_B: 23sta, 26int, 119 healing, 16crit, and 8mp5

Comes down to:

1int, 9healing, 5crit versus 8mp5

Now for my 2v2 gear I'd prefer the stormgarde, for raids and 5v5, I'm not entirely sure. In places where mana isn't an issue Belt_A offers more HPS, even if only slightly. Thoughts?

 

Rerolled

If paladin A casts X HLs and Y FoLs in a fight and runs oom 30 seconds before the boss dies, and paladin B also casts X HLs and Y FoLs but doesn't run oom due to having a spriest or something, assuming both paladins crit the same amount of heals, did they not receive the same benefit from Illumination? I don't understand what running oom has to do with it.

 

Rerolled

You said it yourself, ideally you'd get both and switch between them depending on the fight. I think belt B is the better overall belt though, and wouldn't bother spending dkp on A unless you don't have much else to spend it on.

By the way, you can use the [item] tag to save space in posts.

 

Fielding

ah! nice, thanks for telling me about the item tag. I had seen it put in to practice before, but I couldn't find the tag for it... err well I guess I could have tried a bit harder.

Either way, I usually know the answer to what I'm asking, but I hate not having an easy answer for gearing. I posted above a bit about how I used to play a rogue and was really hardcore about optimal gearing and making sure I was doing the max dps I could.... it's so much different now as a healer =/ nothing is static.. everything is situational it seems haha.


Thanks for the input =) Hopefully some others will chime in.

 

Cronym

I'll have the points for the Season 3 gloves next week and will be able to pick up the T6 gloves tomorrow. I'm generally building for a high +healing set utilizing 4pc T6 and I was evaluating those 2 items.

Stats (Including +healing and spell crit from Int)

T6 - 97.2 healing, 0.4% spell crit, 12mp5 + a socket
S3 - 81.2 healing, 1.67% spell crit, 0mp5 with 2% extra crit to FoL

Assuming FoL is my primary heal, would the extra crit + FoL crit compensate for the loss of ~38 healing and the mp5? I'm leaning towards the T6 gloves but I'm a relatively new (and somewhat inexperienced) paladin. I'm not terribly concerned with mp5 alone as I generally get a shadow priest and have no issues with chaining pots if I don't get one.

Thoughts?

 

galzohar

Note that I did not say crit was very good. I said you were undervaluing it. However without a shadowpriest it would still have a low value compared to other stats, as you've said, as even the >20% underevaluation (as the 32k you've used also included the illumination mana returns while the 5k remaining does not) taken into account crit will still be bad for you.

Heck even with shadowpriest and using all your mana crit is still not as good for efficiency as straight up +healing. You will need your crit overhealing to be very low (basically assume your heals are going to crit when you cast them to minimize the overhealing you get on crits), for 10 crit rating to get anywhere close to 18 healing. Anything less than that, and crit rating starts to drop.

Similar stuff can be said for crit vs mp5 - you will need insanely low crit overhealing and just about any mana restoring support in the game for crit to get anywhere near mp5 in the extra healing done per itemization point. Anything less and mp5 is simply more worthwhile.

Going by WWS though, undervalues crit, which means in some cases you will choose an item with very low mp5 over an item with very high crit when the item with high crit might actually be better. Call X the remaining mana, your "missing" illumination mana is X/(1-0.6*crit) - X (as in the mana you could've used that wasn't shown on the WWS). And of course that crit would also do a bit more effective healing...

 

tdevil

Sooo no sensible pallies run a setup like the above? =(